But the Geissele and Knights aren’t just a duty quality AR. They are engineering works of art. Moreover the KAC.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
But the Geissele and Knights aren’t just a duty quality AR. They are engineering works of art. Moreover the KAC.

I have an irrational desire for one of the 14.5” P&W Super Duties in 40mm green. Irrational because I strongly prefer piston driven, folding stock platforms and dislike buffer tubes and springs. It’s the DI AR I’d get if I did go that route though. But for $1,600 vs $1,800 (used prices) for the HK MR556, it doesn’t seem like as much of a value?

quote:

I strongly prefer piston driven, folding stock platforms and dislike buffer tubes and springs.

Why? I created a thread aimed at contemplating the virtues of folding stocks; your thoughts would be appreciated there. Like Smudge, I recognized the scope of your collection, and the intent of this thread. Like Jones, I think the "DI" AR15 is unbeatable, when it comes to a contemporary fighting rifle. Jones introduced the argument, and you have now reciprocated; had you left it alone, we all could have stayed within the intended scope, as dictated by the OP. But now...

I was long infatuated with the Sig 55X series. I invested heavily, and thought they were the bees knees; the piston-driven, folding stock pinnacle; I preferred them to ARs for more than a few years. In applying a more practical mindset to my firearms hobby over the past couple years though, I am VERY sorry I wasted that money/time/effort; I am back to the superior AR15. I still own and appreciate the 55X, and other piston/folding guns, but I don't have the money to exercise the hobby on both fronts: collection and practical. I have no beef with collecting; I just can't really do it right now.
Your collection is intriguing, and I was content to follow it's progress, until ol' Jones threw in the diversion, and, in addressing it, you made the conversation about more than collecting.

To the OP: I love my SCAR. Phenomenal weapon, fun to shoot, and practically useful.
After having it a while now, I do not feel that way about my APC223. Too heavy, awkwardly balanced, not a useful weapon and not even fun to shoot. I bought it because I love the APC9, which is a remarkable gun, and thought this would be great too. Wrong. I will sell it if I ever have enough free time. It's a collectors gun. To be sure, the APC223 seems rugged and has been reliable, it's just so damn heavy and weird to hold that I never se myself talking it to a course. My recommendation is take that one off your list, and if you don't have a SCAR get one.

quote:

Originally posted by Accomplice:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
But the Geissele and Knights aren’t just a duty quality AR. They are engineering works of art. Moreover the KAC.

I have an irrational desire for one of the 14.5” P&W Super Duties in 40mm green. Irrational because I strongly prefer piston driven, folding stock platforms and dislike buffer tubes and springs. It’s the DI AR I’d get if I did go that route though. But for $1,600 vs $1,800 (used prices) for the HK MR556, it doesn’t seem like as much of a value?

It is a fine choice. The P&W 14.5 KAC is a jewel as well.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

I strongly prefer piston driven, folding stock platforms and dislike buffer tubes and springs.

Why? I created a thread aimed at contemplating the virtues of folding stocks; your thoughts would be appreciated there. Like Smudge, I recognized the scope of your collection, and the intent of this thread. Like Jones, I think the "DI" AR15 is unbeatable, when it comes to a contemporary fighting rifle. Jones introduced the argument, and you have now reciprocated; had you left it alone, we all could have stayed within the intended scope, as dictated by the OP. But now...

I was long infatuated with the Sig 55X series. I invested heavily, and thought they were the bees knees; the piston-driven, folding stock pinnacle; I preferred them to ARs for more than a few years. In applying a more practical mindset to my firearms hobby over the past couple years though, I am VERY sorry I wasted that money/time/effort; I am back to the superior AR15. I still own and appreciate the 55X, and other piston/folding guns, but I don't have the money to exercise the hobby on both fronts: collection and practical. I have no beef with collecting; I just can't really do it right now.
Your collection is intriguing, and I was content to follow it's progress, until ol' Jones threw in the diversion, and, in addressing it, you made the conversation about more than collecting.

If the SHTF and I had to reach for 1 rifle I wouldn’t get to clean for the next year and my options were a Sig 556 or DI AR, I’d grab the Sig. It’s not because there’s anything wrong with the AR. It’s just that I have so much positive experience with the 556 platform that I know it would run and run. Maybe the AR would too but I just don’t associate the same feeling of durability with the platform. The Sig’s internals strike me as more robust by comparison.

This could come partially from the AR seeming light and toylike by comparison to some of the other platforms. Light weight is a virtue but it may transmit some subconscious impression, rightly or wrongly, about its durability.

The buffer tube and spring are features that don’t bring anything especially great to the table but keep it from folding down for transport. Yes, you can add a big chunk of metal to them that was developed after the fact, and get it to fold, but that doesn’t seem like a viable solution given the weight and the cost.

What’s great about the AR, in my opinion, is the light weight and the fact that they start around $400. In my mind, once you get over $800 in an AR, everything else looks like a better option to me.

The inherent light weight, combined with the linear recoil layout, is the ultimate advantage. A big thing that contributed to my return to the AR was the desire to maximize capabilities, with the use of things like lights and lasers. The larger fore-ends of many of the weapons you mention in your OP become quite cumbersome indeed, when you clamp on a light, laser, and their associated switches. Also, use of a silencer, perhaps surprisingly, is not better on a piston gun, IME; filth is almost as present, and a piston gun is louder. These rifles can be excellent "shooters", but it's likely largely due to their weight; I enjoy every time I get a 55X to the range, as they are very smooth, due to that chunky front end, and heavy receiver. In 5.56, the AR is the king. The only one of my Sigs that I pay any attention to, in a practical context, is the 553R, as it's a finer weapon than most, in the 7.62x39 caliber.

Ignoring logistical realities, if I had to choose between two weapons in their bare-bones configurations, and they were to stay that way, and the choices were a M4 Carbine and a SG551, it would be a very hard choice. Another thing worth remembering is that guns like the 553 and 551 have seen contention in US military Special Operations trials, and ultimately lost to AR variants. The 55X is a fine weapon, and I think the Swiss are right to proudly use it, but I don't think it is finer than an AR.

Here in America, I think the 55X, and rifles like it, saw more use in LE than anywhere else. jljones may be able to offer some insight as to why, and why they aren't anymore.

Also, it's interesting that the commercial side seems to favor the SCAR over the 416, while the military is the opposite.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by Anubismp:
I believe the scar has to take metal mags, could be wrong.

I've seen that Pmags can damage a SCAR, but there's a modification you can do to work around that.

I believe the OP has a Bren 2. I will second that it is an excellent rifle, I really like mine.

If memory serves I believe the Gen 3 Pmags were modified to correct the problem.

Accomplice, given your list of non-traditional AR's I would say SCAR 16 for sure but I would likely say the APC223 first. Recognizing ariabiancowboy's feedback above, my thought is the APC223 is just so much less well known.
If you were ever putting your collection on display the APC223 would garner questions as most folks in the general population have never seen one.

Nice collection, congratulations.
HK Ag

Thanks for all of the feedback. After picking up this funky orange Gen 1 MCX for only $1,156 shipped, it makes it harder to see the value in the $2k+ crowd. This MCX seems very light/ handy/ balanced/ ergonomic and the fit & finish is strong.

If someone already has a Bren 2, there is little reason to add a Bren 805. I got a 805 carbine when it first came out, and then a Bren 2 carbine later. The 805 just sits in the back of the safe now. The Bren 2 is better in almost every way IMHO.

I bought a Bren 2 first and then went and bought an 805 Bren because I still wanted one.

As for the APC223, skip it. It's needlessly heavy and does nothing well. I traded my 16" APC223 for a NIB MCX Virtus and NIB ARX100 and never looked back (after jonesing for one for a LONG time).

Also, the MCX is NOT light and not well-balanced. A lightened MCX LT is still heavier than a Galil Ace Gen 1 which everybody agrees is heavy. I own the MCX Virtus, the MCX LT and several Galil Aces with RS Regulate handguards. They're all cool.

To the OP, if you don't already have a Marcolmar CETME L or LC, you should get that over an APC223. They're flawlessly finished and a bargain. No the manual of arms isn't intuitive but they use USGI STANAG mags so that's a plus.

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:

Also, the MCX is NOT light and not well-balanced. A lightened MCX LT is still heavier than a Galil Ace Gen 1 which everybody agrees is heavy. I own the MCX Virtus, the MCX LT and several Galil Aces with RS Regulate handguards. They're all cool.

As I get older, everything starts to feel heavier. I was genuinely surprised at how light the MCX felt to me. That may be a byproduct of having viewed the handguards as super chunky for years (they look fat in pics) and expecting the gun to be heavier than it is because of that? Maybe I need to do some weighing of all of these rifles.

Of the three you listed, my pick would be the apc223. Just something about them that I love. The scar 17 is on the list but the 16 does nothing for me. The 416 will forever have that 2010 era GWOT goodness, but that's all it's ever had to me. Just a rifle from a blip of time that's cool, but isn't as fun as the early GWOT guns. The ACR could have been awesome. Owned one, sold it. Bushmaster dropped the ball, and years after I sold it Templar Precision did all the things it should have had (slimmer/lighter forend, titanium trunion, aluminum lower, folding charging handles, barrels, ect). But it's about 1k-1.5k to make it what it should have been after you buy the rifle. Not worth it at that price.

The Perun X-16 and used ARX100 came in.




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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Accomplice,

The XCR took the next spot. It should get here by Friday. Starting to regret passing on a used Scar with Eotech at $2,500 shipped (IE $2,100 for the Scar which was a decent deal). The APC223, ACR and Tommy Built G36s are just too much for how cheap I am.


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For the money a QUALITY DI AR-15 can’t be beat.

One of my favorite trainers made the comment that piston AR’s ruined everything best about AR-15’s that being interchangeability and common parts. What’s the use of a great piston rifle you can’t find rare parts for when it breaks?

The SCAR 16 is a very good rifle with common, available parts but not compared to DI AR-15’s. Better than an M-4 but far more expensive.

Bren 2’s are sweet, cheaper than a SCAR but parts????

I love my ACR but shoot it sparingly because I dunno how fixable it is.

There is good, better and best but there is also easy, possible and stupid expensive to maintain and keep shooting. Choose accordingly……

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
For the money a QUALITY DI AR-15 can’t be beat.

One of my favorite trainers made the comment that piston AR’s ruined everything best about AR-15’s that being interchangeability and common parts. What’s the use of a great piston rifle you can’t find rare parts for when it breaks?

The SCAR 16 is a very good rifle with common, available parts but not compared to DI AR-15’s. Better than an M-4 but far more expensive.

Bren 2’s are sweet, cheaper than a SCAR but parts????

I love my ACR but shoot it sparingly because I dunno how fixable it is.

There is good, better and best but there is also easy, possible and stupid expensive to maintain and keep shooting. Choose accordingly……

I have a LWRC piston that’s been shooting great since 2010. None of the proprietary or piston parts have ever broken. I don’t think the “parts” issue is an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Bren 2’s are sweet, cheaper than a SCAR but parts????

I tend to have this concern. It's one reason I never really shot my FS2000 and then sold it. However, I took a quick look in the Bren 2 subreddit and the only stuff that's turning up for parts breakage is the barrel screws CZ puts an extremely sturdy threadlocker on. The only original parts in mine are some trigger springs, the hammer, barrel, receiver, and the bolt and carrier. Everything else is either aftermarket, or someone makes a replacement part for it. These rifles haven't been on the market forever, but they already have a reputation for being really solid. CZ USA has a pretty good reputation for helping out folks who blow up their Scorpions.

Parts availability is a concern I've always had. I don't really have that worry with my Bren. Maybe ten or twenty years from now it will be a different story, I don't know. Not worried about it right now, though. If it goes down and I can't get a machinist with a six axis and CAD to machine me a new carrier or something twenty years from now, well, I've got plain Jane AR's. I get your point, but I think you might be making a bigger thing of it than it actually is.

Thanks to companies like Midwest Gun Works parts availability for the SCAR is much better than when they first came out. With some patience I was able to build up a collection of every spare part I thought I would ever need. Of course the price hike in the past year doesn't help much.

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/fn-scar/parts.html

Since none of my SCARs are over 50k rounds I still have not broken a bolt lug or a firing pin. Pretty much all I have needed are new return springs and different gas jet sizes.