I don’t know how many competitors shoot much when it’s snowing, but I’m curious if anyone has ever tried to come up with an accurate method of estimating wind speed based on the angle that snow is falling. It seems to me that under the right conditions it would be an easier indicator to read than heat waves. The obvious complication would be that different types of snow would be affected differently. Large, fluffy flakes would be blown at more of an angle, I believe, than small, hard kernels.

I tried an Internet search on the subject and found not even a mention of the idea.

That is interesting.
I lived in the Chautauqua Lake area of Western NY below Buffalo for about seven years. I can tell you why the Eskimos supposedly have 100 words for snow.
(One of the most memorable lake-effect snowstorms in Buffalo, New York, took place in October 2006, when 22.6 inches of snow fell in the city).
We shot a lot in snowfall because you had to (winter 10 months of the year. ha).

I can say, when lake effect snow came down you wouldn't be shooting long, because you couldn't see more than 20 feet. But you may have something there.

I am not a meteorologist but I would expect that banded snow (what you experience in lake effect areas) could have more wind gusts. (Lake-effect snow requires cold air passing over relatively warmer lake surfaces.). The flakes would certainly be good indicators. But up there (Colorado may be different) heavy, wet flakes could just pour straight down or blizzard everywhere in high wind. Hard to keep optics clean when that happens.

Funny but interesting question. We shoot in the snow all the time in my geography as we have a long winter. When its really light and very fluffy cold snow its like nifty little wind flags. But once that stage of a snow is gone, so is shooting at any distance where wind matters. If you can't see the target at 50m what does it matter.

I would think that the variability of the snow weight depending upon temp and humidity would make a general rule regarding snow/wind reading difficult.

However, there are probably useful clues in the snow fall.

RMD

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:
I would think that the variability of the snow weight depending upon temp and humidity would make a general rule regarding snow/wind reading difficult.

I’m sure that’s true. It seems to me that snow characteristics seem to vary less where I live now than when I was in Germany or on the East Coast, but I never paid close attention, so I could be misremembering.

I only started thinking about the question relatively recently, but it was snowing lightly here for a time yesterday and I did try to see if I could detect any correlation between wind speed and snowfall angle. What I noted was that even though the wind was so light that it didn’t register on my Kestrel or home anemometer, the snow was still falling at about a 45 degree angle. That makes me suspect that snowfall isn’t going to be of much value in estimating wind speed, but I’m still curious to know whether anyone has looked into the concept.

Snowfall wind speed indicator:
Falling straight down = no wind
Blowing at 45* angle = windy
Blowing at 90* angle = REALLY windy

Adjust aim accordingly......

Too many variables on the snow flake and how it would be affected by wind. No two snowflakes are exactly the same, except the human type.

quote:

Originally posted by blfuller:
Too many variables on the snow flake and how it would be affected by wind.

You’ve evidently researched the matter, including the variables, so which ones have you found to change the effect of wind on snowfall? I assume that size and shape of flakes matter, but how about humidity or air temperature? What about elevation above sea level? Bullet drift caused by wind varies with altitude, so that’s something else I’d expect to differ, but I’m curious what you’ve observed. Do snowfall rates make a difference; i.e., if it’s snowing heavily, is the wind effect different than if only a few flakes are falling?

Have you been able to determine any specific effects within limited parameters such as a small range of wind velocities and certain types of snow?

I also believe there are too many variables in snowfall to use it as a windspeed gauge.

Wind direction -- sure.
Wind speed indicator of (1) nothing, (2) a whole boat load of wind, or (3) somewhere in between -- sure.

Light, fluffy snow gently moving as the breeze shifts is a good indicator of conditions. I've shot in such conditions in both eastern and western Colorado.

Hard pellets of snow, mixed with rain, driven sideways into sheets by 20-30 mph winds is a whole different ball game. Ask any of us who shot in the PRS Battle of Breakneck match two years ago in Nebraska.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by blfuller:
Too many variables on the snow flake and how it would be affected by wind.

You’ve evidently researched the matter, including the variables, so which ones have you found to change the effect of wind on snowfall? I assume that size and shape of flakes matter, but how about humidity or air temperature? What about elevation above sea level? Bullet drift caused by wind varies with altitude, so that’s something else I’d expect to differ, but I’m curious what you’ve observed. Do snowfall rates make a difference; i.e., if it’s snowing heavily, is the wind effect different than if only a few flakes are falling?

Have you been able to determine any specific effects within limited parameters such as a small range of wind velocities and certain types of snow?

The amount of time that it would take to take into consideration all the physical and atmospheric variables would not be worth the time. You could use what the NOAA chart offers for common indicators that would be present in a snow environment. Easiest thing would be to purchase a Kestrel wind meter that would fit one's budget and be done with it. IMHO.

The few times I've shot in snow and rain has been in Raton at the Sporting Rifle field match. Didn't really give the snow angle/wind speed much thought, certainly aware of it slowing down/speeding up from shot to shot on a stage. Seeing how the direction/speed of the snow would change based on the terrain, target location, I believe a much more useful learning tool when shooting in hilly terrain, mountains..... terrain I shoot LR in most of time. Wind switches based on terrain are always there, very good to see it, understand it, carry that info with me.

If I were on a flat area, snow coming L-R at a 45 degree angle. Being the master of the fairly obvious, left wind hold Wind probably greater then 1mph, less then 5mph? 1000yd/1MOA target/2'ish mph window to hit... would guess a 3mph hold, see where that takes me, go from there.

I think blfuller and others nailed it.

The variables in snow weight and type just seem to me to be too hard to calculate into some sort of useful equation.

But the concept seems really interesting. Never thot of it.

As I mentioned above, I already own a Kestrel but have spent a lot of time and study on trying to learn other methods of wind calls. Anyone who has actually used one knows their limitations (hopefully) and how they are far from being the answer to all wind questions. That’s why I hoped for input from the long distance shooters or others who might have had real experience with evaluating the effects of wind in general and specifically on snow. Thanks for those insights.

And now that we’ve been getting some snow recently (in a very mild, dry winter), I’ve started making my own observations. I’ve discovered nothing too startling thus far, but enough to decide that it’s worth the effort.

Another somewhat related question now that I’ve attracted the attention of the knowledgeable, what is the effect, if any, of shooting at long distances through the rain? Again, I’m interested in actual experience or information based on actual experiences. And to make clear, I know enough about the subject to be aware that the change in humidity has a very minor effect, but that’s not what I’m asking about: I’m referring to the rain itself.

Mist, sprinkles, and light rain don't seem to make any changes to my dope. At least to the distances I've shot in those matches -- maybe to 600 or 700 yards. I could detect wind direction, but not with the feel I get from mirage.

Shooting in heavy rain really, really sucks. Yeah, you can see wind direction quite well. The heavy rain I've shot in also pushed rain onto both lenses of the scope and coated my glasses. I have no clue if the heavy rain affected my bullet's flight. I could barely see the targets and had little idea of my impacts, both hits and misses. The spotters were struggling, too.

To be honest, I don't get your fascination with shooting in poor weather. It's not any fun and results are often poor.

Other than being a naturally curious fellow, I have professional reasons for knowing as much as possible about the art and science of long range shooting—including when shooting is required, not optional, and when it’s not possible to just stay home because the weather is nasty. I have read over 60 books that were written by professional shooters and that discuss almost every other conceivable aspect of professional shooting. None, however, said a word about shooting in the rain or using snowfall to estimate wind speed, so that’s why I ask.

Most of the time when I finally come here for advice or information I’ve already exhausted all other sources. Because it’s usually a last resort I seldom have high hopes of learning anything new, but I have been pleasantly mistaken on many occasions.

And to be blunt, I don’t understand why people who don’t understand someone else’s interest in something don’t just ignore the issue rather than feeling obligated to interject meaningless comments into the discussion. This one is a perfect example. I mentioned early on that I had a Kestrel weather monitor (it’s even the one with the Applied Ballistics calculator), but what reply do I get to a very simple question? In essence: “It’s too difficult for anyone to figure out. Just get yourself a Kestrel (if you can afford one) and be content with that.”

I do get frustrated at times because it’s obvious that the meaningless interjections often discourage the people who might have something useful to contribute. They open a thread and think, “I’m not getting involved in that mess.” I apologize for allowing my frustration to come through in my acerbic replies.

And to make it clear, fritz, my complaint is not directed at you or the other experienced long range shooters who have provided excellent information and advice here for so long. Every time I see that a new post has been added to the long range shooting discussion, I read it carefully. Your description of shooting in the rain is exactly the sort of information I’m seeking, and I can’t adequately express my gratitude to you and the others who provide it other than to say Thank You!

Shooting in snow did not see a change in POI out to 890yds.

Shot in very heavy rain twice. Rifle, ammo and me saturated. So many other factors, couldn't say if the falling rain effected my bullet. Water dripping down on the lenses of the scope distorting my sight picture, cold/numb trigger finger and because of the rain in the muzzle/ammo no doubt the pressure/velocity changed. Witness a couple guys have pressure problems, very stiff bolt lifts.... My local 100yd range has shoot houses, I've shot a few times in heavy rain there, rifle and I dry, 100yds no change in POI.

Back to shooting in the snow at Raton. A few stages see the snow angle much steeper at the shooting position then flatten out on the valley floor at the targets. This confirmed what I've seen countless times shooting in almost that exact same terrain elsewhere, wind speed higher at the shooting position then at the targets. Also seen the reverse countless times. A wind meter in that type of terrain is absolutely worthless.

There's always lots of information in front of us to make a educated guess on a wind call. Educated guess is all it is. sigfreund, I understand your desire to add another piece of info to your wind reading skill, the more we see and understand, the more educated the guess.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I have read over 60 books that were written by professional shooters and that discuss almost every other conceivable aspect of professional shooting. None, however, said a word about shooting in the rain or using snowfall to estimate wind speed, so that’s why I ask.

You likely won't find any publications with detailed information on windspeed estimation methods during rain or snow storms. I suspect the falling snow or rain doesn't affect bullet flight all that much. But the moisture has a definite negative effect on visibility if it is coming down hard enough.

Storms often bring increased and variable wind, especially in mountainous terrain. There can be so many variables that rules of thumb probably go out the door. This is where time behind the trigger matters.

If you really want to understand how to shoot in crappy weather, you need to go shoot in it. Once you're done it, you'll want to avoid shooting in bad weather for the future.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
If you really want to understand how to shoot in crappy weather, you need to go shoot in it. Once you're done it, you'll want to avoid shooting in bad weather for the future.

Over many years I have shot in really bad weather frequently. It's something I almost feel a need to do, tho admittedly it is an exercise in misery at the very least. But due to my winter hobbies I feel a need to accommodate myself to it. As a result, I can't argue with what you say here other than that I'll likely keep doing it!! LOL.

I own a range on which we can shoot to 1000 meters, but we have never gotten into true long range shooting {over 500 meters}. Conditions of hunting never really allowed it, tho now with the extensive clear-cutting in our area the ability to shoot at much greater distances is there. But my experience in the field sort of dampens my eagerness to shoot noble game past what might be considered "point blank", that is, a range at which the rifle can be zeroed with no adjustment of optics needed {300-400 max}.

Nevertheless, I haven't found the need. I check into you guys in your long range threads from time to time and find them really quite interesting, but have just never gotten into it. So this question by sigfreund is an interesting one as it is unique.

Anyway, in our hunting seasons, the weather is as sigfreund suggests; often bad. So it would be interesting to note if there WAS some form of calculation that could be made using falling snow. I just don't think there is or can be.

For example, in truly heavy snow, one cannot see to any great range and under such circumstances no adjustment for wind speed is even necessary. We have whiteouts where that is common. Another example comes to mind in that a heavy snow will fall straighter down than a light snow for the same wind speed. So could a temperature factor be added? Well, maybe, but then "weight" of snow isn't always dependent on ground temps. At times snow is almost indistinguishable from rain and is often mixed with rain; what to do then?

Way I look at it, the purpose of using snow to gauge wind would be to eliminate variables to make a speedier, visual estimate that much simpler, yet in reality, the variable nature of snow would actually add an almost infinite number of variables to the equation, thus making the calculation that much more difficult.

Very fine snow is falling as I type this. It helps ID the direction of fall, but as far as I can tell, that is about it.

ETA: Heavier snow now. Falling almost straight down. Visibility limited to 300 meters.

Just to clear something up, please be aware that everything falls at the same rate regardless of weight. Not a constant velocity but a constant acceleration of 32 feet per second squared. The only affecting factor is wind resistance. In a vacuum a baseball and a piece of paper will fall at the same rate. That is, if released at the same time they will hit the ground at the same time. However, in air the paper will fall slower because its' larger area results in greater wind resistance. Thus, the relative weight of snow is not a factor.

quote:

Originally posted by Tejas421:
Just to clear something up, please be aware that everything falls at the same rate regardless of weight. Not a constant velocity but a constant acceleration of 32 feet per second squared. The only affecting factor is wind resistance. In a vacuum a baseball and a piece of paper will fall at the same rate. That is, if released at the same time they will hit the ground at the same time. However, in air the paper will fall slower because its' larger area results in greater wind resistance. Thus, the relative weight of snow is not a factor.

Yes.

I guess what we are referring to is the relative speed a man wearing a parachute falls depending on whether the chute is deployed or un-deployed.