quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I’m missing something you don’t need to time a 3prong flashider. And if for some reason you want to (can’t imagine why) it’s trivial.

I may be misusing the word. The idea is simply to have the bottom prong be parallel to the ground when the rifle's being shot from prone.

Ok so install it that way. There is nothing magic about that. SinCe you are not using a suppressor just install a crush washer and torque to the timing you want. Note that it won’t make squat difference but be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Ok so install it that way. There is nothing magic about that. SinCe you are not using a suppressor just install a crush washer and torque to the timing you want. Note that it won’t make squat difference but be happy.

Bingo.

OP -- I have never heard of any shooter attempting to "time" a multi-prong flash hider to have a solid prong facing straight down. It doesn't accomplish anything. It doesn't change the recoil impulse. It doesn't reduce dust signature when shooting from a low prone position. It doesn't make the rifle shooter more accurately. It just doesn't. Maybe, someday, you'll obtain the experience to understand this.

On another point, Surefire FHs/comps/brakes are good. I have many of them, now primarily used as suppressor mounts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qDf6Xf0rR4

.308 Muzzle Brake Shootout!

My personal experience is that directing the muzzle gas directly down though an open slot at the bottom of a flash suppressor definitely increases the amount of dust and dirt that’s blown up into the air and onto the gun when firing prone in certain environments. When I first got a Seekins SP10 I needed to install a muzzle device that would accept my Thunder Beast suppressor. Because I was concerned about flash suppression, I originally settled on TBAC’s model rather than a muzzle brake. The prongs and slots of that hider are helical shaped, though, and therefore there is no way to time them so that some of the muzzle gas isn’t directed straight down to the ground when firing. When I first fired the gun from the prone with that device at my sandy, gravelly range, my face, gun, and scope were covered with blown up dirt with every shot. After that one session I immediately switched to a TBAC brake.

I have other guns with three prong flash hiders and I always time them so an open slot is at the top and a prong at the bottom. When I received my JP Precision rifle earlier this year with the three prong hider I requested, it was timed that way as well. I shoot all those guns at the same range where I had the problem with the TBAC flash hider on the SP10 and have never experienced anything similar with the dust and dirt. Could it be that there is something else about the TBAC flash suppressor that causes the problem rather than how it directs the gas down to the ground? I suppose, but I’m not smart enough to know what it is. What I do know is that I had a problem with it and not with the other three prong devices that I have timed with a prong at the bottom.

As for the method of timing muzzle devices, I agree that using a crush washer is easier than using peel washers. Suppressor manufacturers evidently caution against crush washers when installing adapters for their devices because of possible concentricity problems, but I’ve never seen that warning for muzzle devices that aren’t going to be used with suppressors.

^^^ This is the advice I was trying to follow. I'm sure Colorado and Florida have their share, but we have a plentiful supply of rocks, sand and dirt in Texas where I shoot and only a sometime supply of grass or other ground cover.

quote:

but be happy

Fair enough.

Revisiting the question of timing muzzle brakes for shooting from the prone and avoiding their blowing dirt and debris up into the air and onto the gun and shooter.

I found this Precision Rifle Blog article just now that evaluates a number of muzzle brakes, and it included the following statement about brakes that direct gas downward when shooting from the prone. The article evaluated 20+ brakes, including one that directed gas omnidirectionally, including downward. That one brake was considered unacceptable.

===============

“1. How much gas is being directed down at the ground (i.e. ground signature) ...

“#1 is especially important for those of us who shoot a lot from the prone position. In those situations, the muzzle is just a few inches off the ground and if any gas is redirected towards the ground … you’re going to be eating sand, grit, small insects, and whatever else isn’t bolted down. All jokes aside, if that stuff gets in your eyes, you’re not firing a follow-up shot. It’s more than inconvenient. It’s a real problem.”

LINK

This one, I think? Will give it a read this evening.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/...-field-test-results/

Your link is to the comprehensive test results report and includes the same statement I quoted. The report I linked concentrated on the gas dispersion patterns of the various brakes.

Every rifle with any type of muzzle device -- or even without a muzzle device -- blows up dust and grit from the muzzle, if the ground surface is loose. Those that direct the blast any other direction than forward increase the blast back towards the shooter. The best muzzle device for reducing ground dust effect is a long and efficient suppressor. #2 is a bare muzzle on a long barrel. The worst are brakes and comps with the largest port(s) facing downward.

It is true that dust driven by the muzzle blast, coming back on the shooter can be disconcerting. Especially for inexperienced shooters. More disconcerting is wind blown dust, sand, grit, gravel, insects, rain, snow, leaves, or whatever. The competent shooter has substantially less issues with garbage driven by muzzle blast than by the wind. Even the blast driven by nearby shooters, say in a team match. Shoot in enough matches, shoot in enough places, train constantly and one knows this.

So...where have I shot? This should cover most of them.
Zia Range, Albuquerque, NM. PRS. Powdery find sand driven by wind. Action and scope covers are necessary for a match. Even with covers, the action will be full of grit by the end of the day. Multiple wipe downs may be necessary. Not a place for Jewel triggers.

NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM. Shot on four separate locations on the facility -- carbine, bolt action, and ELR. When the wind is up, the muzzle device compares little to what the wind is doing.

JP Ranch, NM. Competition Dynamics and NRL. Horrible loose dirt on the north course's calichi pit stages. Same for the first few stages of the south course. I've seen other competitors and teams finish stages with faces covered with dirt. They just concentrated on the shot.

Local matches at Fort Carson, CO. Clay soils are dusty.

I train regularly at our family ranch in eastern Colorado. The pastures are green from May through August, and dust bowls the rest of the year. Never worried about my muzzle devices, and I've shot many types with various orientations.

Monthly match at Rifle, CO. Rifle is known by rock climbers as having some of the most challenging limestone routes anywhere. Limestone soil is really fine, and it blows rather well in the wind.

Practice at Great Guns range in northern Colorado. Clay and sandy soils on the 100, 200, and 300 yard ranges. I mainly shot prone from the dirt there, once I realized that concrete benches weren't helping my technique.

T1 Ranch, northeastern Colorado. Many monthly matches and training. We generally shot from the rims of the small canyons. Some shooting positions were rock and gravel, others were dust bowls.

Private ranch not far from the T1 ranch. T1 is above the Platte River drainage; this ranch is in the flood plain. Shot here in Rifles Only courses -- carbine, bolt action, and ELR. The dust was oh-so-fun during the summers when the Platte flooded in the spring.

NRL matches east of Craig, CO. Best described as dry, dusty, and hot. Sagebrush country. We're covered in fine grit by the end of a day's shooting.

Competition Dynamics events at the mountain ranch a little south of Douglass, WY. Monthly rifle matches and carbine/rifle team events. The wind blows and the clay soil is fine.

Nightforce ELR matches in WY. The first few years at the Q Creek ranch. Bentonite soils not far from two big wind farms. Regardless of muzzle device, magnum rifles kick up a lot of dust. Shooters concentrated on their shots. This past year, the ELR match was held north of Douglass, WY. The soil was courser and more sandy at this location, but the winds were higher -- consistent 20-30 mph, with some stages receiving 50+ mph gusts.

Multiple match names just north of Sidney, NE. Shot from rocky ridges, sandy flats of the Platte River drainage, and everything in between. We've seen brutally hot & dusty days, perfect weather, and 35 mph wind driven rain/snow. Muzzle devices were the least of shooters' issues.

And finally, the Rifles Only facility near Kingsville, TX. Inland from Corpus Christi, in the desert area next to the King Ranch. Was just there. Yep, lots of dust and wind, and we just shot through it.

One can read about shooting, or one can just do it and develop first hand working knowledge.

Incidentally, if someone else is looking for an AAC Blackout non-mount flash suppressor (1/2x28 or 5/8x24) for $19.95, these guys have 'em. Shims, too, for those so inclined.

http://www.capitolarmory.com/a...unt-flash-hider.html

No connection to the seller.

For metal mags, LaRue OBR mags are the nicest Stoner pattern 308 mag, followed closely by the KAC SR25 mag. Neither option is inexpensive. I have avoided all other options in metal 308 mags due to either varied or completely shit reports. Several friends have had complete reliability with Lancer 308 mags, which have steel feedlips, so they are sort of in line with what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

One can read about shooting, or one can just do it and develop first hand working knowledge.

Amen. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeach it! Seriously, this is spot on.