As the guy who has four OTAL lasers, because I thought equipping more uppers for less money was a good idea, I can tell you that I don't necessarily regret it. I don't know that I would trade a couple of those (prices have gone up on them, since I purchased) and a Vampire for a DIR-V, or probably two of each for a MAWL (I'd mull it over though). One thing to consider, is I think more than a couple night vision vendors have financing abilities. Saving up and then spending such a chunk as is required for good IR tools is a hard pill to swallow; the financing route is something worth looking into.

Putting something airsoft grade on a real gun does give me a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, but it's probably not a waste of money, if it gets you out there messing with stuff. As with most things, the dude with the restricted new-hotness Wilcox or Eotech MFAL can get spanked by the dude with less impressive kit, if there is a weapons/tactics proficiency contrast. If I recall correctly, Smudge, your actual NVD is pretty nice. So, that's something else to take into account; do you want your sweet NVD to be paired with an airsoft IR tool?

I definitely agree that the DIR-V and MAWL are more than adequate; I'd say they are high performance. The crazy high-power illuminators are really only enablers when a clip-on on a long range setup is in play. The crazy high power lasers are completely unnecessary, IMO. They're perhaps useful in a military context, for designating targets for friggen aircraft or something, but a civilian, even in an atmosphere of total lawlessness, doesn't require that ability. The OTAL, as an example, can easily put a dot on something 500m away; probably more. That is waaaayyyy further than I am going to shoot a rifle in the dark (well, that depends on context, to a point; not to mention trajectory relative to the laser zero), and is more than sufficient for designating points of interest to other friendly elements in any kind of cooperative small unit context, in a WROL America.

Another perk of multiple lower-price units is the ability to equip a friend. A good friend of mine hasn't been able to afford NV yet, but he's had one of my OTALs for over a year now, to enable him to participate easier, when we do night events. It's easier to swap headgear than lasers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

I am of the mindset that I’d rather have a few high quality things than many cheap things. Firearms, optics, lasers, lights, bags/packs, fishing gear, etc, etc, etc.

Malkoff has IR head options with tighter beam/less spill that are very effective at longer distances if this is needed. In the longer distance scenario, one is likely using a clip-on like CNVD or CNVD-LR in front of a day optic and not relying on an IR laser for aiming.

The thermonuclear bright mil IR lasers (izlid ultra, LA5 UHP) are typically used for target designation and signaling.

Yeah, despite my complaining, I will end up buying one of the spendy units once I've done enough research and figure out what I want. As for the UHP, I figure worst case scenario if it's a total loser, I can turn around and sell it on Reddit. Some Airsofter will want it and the little hit I'd take on it being used is a drop in the bucket compared to something like a MAWL. If it's not too horrible, it will get me out there and using this stuff. I'm surely not going to amass a collection of these units lol.

To the point about buying quality and not crap, last night I ordered an S&S M-AX with the Surefire head and tailcap instead of an Inforce. I decided being in the Surefire 300/600 ecosystem was worth it given the aftermarket with Malkoff and Arisaka.

quote:

One thing to consider, is I think more than a couple night vision vendors have financing abilities. Saving up and then spending such a chunk as is required for good IR tools is a hard pill to swallow; the financing route is something worth looking into.

I actually didn't think about that, I'm gonna look around and see who does that and what's possible.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

Here is a comparison of the illumination of a full power PEQ15 and a DesignateIR-V.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tus5efY7P0o

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JoshNC,

That's an impressive video. I have looked into getting a diffuser for the PEQ, but never did, as the Vampire gave me the broader beam that worked for situations the diffused illuminator would be used; though I suspect the diffused illuminator might still have more range, but would retain the "artifacts" of a laser illuminator. The VCSEL stuff is a heck of a lot nicer. In my research prompted by our recent equipment discussions, I can't believe what the IR OTAL costs now; I didn't pay $840(eurooptic) for any of mine, and wouldn't encourage anyone to do so; that's insane.

I did some shooting, night before last; the course of fire was:
The shooter started by approaching and slicing a left-hand corner, revealing a target(5yd); after engaging it, he immediately turned ninety degrees to the right, and engaged a target at 17yd. He then resumed travel on the original course, slicing another left corner, and engaging a target at 11yd. He then moved to that target, turned around, and walked the same course in reverse, slicing a right-hand corner, to reveal and engage a target at 11yd, and then 5yd, after more slicing. The shooter then made movement to a position that presented a target inside the shadow of a room at 15yd, forcing use of an illuminator; then he moved to a different position, to engage a target at 26yd. Finally, after one more movement, he had to hit a steel plate at 68yd.

All engagements were three rounds, other than the steel, which was as many rounds as needed to connect. The targets were 5in black dots painted on 10x12in cardboard; the steel plate was 6x12in.

I prioritize the use of passive aiming, so that is how I shot the bulk of this course, with the exception of the target in the dark room, and the steel. The shadowed target required illum, and my laser is activated with my illuminator, so I used it. The steel target was impossible to distinguish from it's sandbag backstop, without the use of an illuminator, so same story there. Even with the illuminator, the steel was dang hard to see. The sandbags were green, and the plate was tan, so the color palate didn't exactly lend itself to contrast, especially through a green monotone.

Personal take-aways were:
-Remember your damn close-range offset! I hadn't shot close-range in a long time, and my first run-through had all my hits outside the circle at six o'clock.
-Remember to install your NVG counterweight! I wore my nightcap last time I shot in the dark; it's counterweight stays attached. I opted to use my helmet this time; the weight doesn't stay on the helmet all the time, and I forgot to install it. I found myself being annoyed by the need to adjust my helmet mid-run. It didn't even dawn on me until the next day: the counterweight would have fixed that.
-Practice reloads with your eyes closed! A second trip through the course involved a reload; my reload didn't suck, but it did take me a few seconds to get aligned with the magwell. My chest rig has deep pouches, so my initial grasp of the mag is minimal; if I don't adjust my grip as I pull the mag out, I won't have a pointer finger to index at the magwell.
-Re-assess your outlook on illuminators! 68yd isn't far; it's within the reach of my Vampire light. However, the target lacked a stark contrast, which made it hard to see; if the illuminator had more power, it likely would have helped. What may seem like overkill might actually be just right, depending on the circumstances. I am going to try to re-visit the course with my PEQ and TNVC Torch, to see how that target looks with different illuminators.
-Get out of the glass! Because passive aiming is my go-to, the process is not dissimilar from what anyone is used to during the day; it's natural to bring the gun into your field of view, and shoot using the optic as you always would. However, when the circumstance precludes the use of passive aiming, I need to remember to drop the gun, or shift my head out from behind the optic, to clear and brighten my field of view, when using laser/illuminator.
-The reps! Jljones made the point, in another thread, that some aspects of shooting are likely impossible to make proficient outside the professional context; NVG use is likely one of them. He made the comment in a conversation about CQB, which has a lot of it's own unique methods; night vision equipment and tactics bring enough of their own nuances and idiosyncrasies to the table, that it becomes similar, in that it takes a lot of maintenance to stay fresh. It's somewhat of a "perishable skill" and, like CQB, requires unique training atmospheres, which are more difficult to produce on a regular basis.

If I remember more worthy points, I'll add them later.

JoshNC, have the folks you shoot with ever made mention of their opinion of passive aiming? I'd be interested to hear the different perspectives on it's advantages and disadvantages.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

JoshNC, have the folks you shoot with ever made mention of their opinion of passive aiming? I'd be interested to hear the different perspectives on it's advantages and disadvantages.

Red dot equipped handgun is about all they use for passive aiming. Rifles always have lasers.

I find that odd. The advantages of passive aiming of any weapon system seem quite obvious to me; especially as everyone's technological standing increases, and IR becomes less and less invisible. There's a lot I don't know about how things can be "out of phase"; perhaps that's how the most current tech stays invisible, even to other NV. When faced with the prospect of a digital or analog-equipped opponent, it seems to me that your IR tools need to be treated like white light and visible lasers. Everyone should train that way anyway, only activating aiming tools when ready to fire, but, like is typical in white light training, you'd be well served to move to a different position after you use the laser/illuminator. Passive grants you the ability to utilize concealment as you would in daylight hours; you can take multiple shots from one position, even as an enemy is trying to find you, because you're not giving them a beacon to easily spot. Combined with low-flash ammo, passive gives you an element of stealth. I need to get to one of the night shoots you attend, or any other one, and see what I am missing; there's got to be something that proves that passive is generally a less desirable technique.

I did return to the course with a PEQ, the TNVC Torch, and an older Vampire. I didn't shoot; I just compared the performance on that steel target, from it's shooting position. That Torch is so damn bright, when focused-down, that it's unusable at anything but long ranges with magnified optics; when it's beam is broadened though, it is very nice; it's a shame it's so damn big. The PEQ's low-power performance is no better than the Vampire; perhaps a bit worse, due to artifacts and it's narrow beam. High power gave me a bit better definition of the target, but the accompanying laser has a lot of bloom at that setting. Both the Torch and the PEQ gave me only a slightly better view of the steel plate, due to the minimal contrast; I would have appreciated either though, the night I ran the course. The Torch paired with a lower-power laser would be awesome; but that'd be an awkward setup, and a band-aid, compared to the DIR-V or MAWL. I gotta start saving my pennies. One thing I'll be sorry to give up, when considering my current setup, is the low profile. The Vampire and OTAL combo is pretty small, because the light pulls double duty.

Let me clarify. I didn’t word my last response well. They do have redundancy and will passively aim carbines as the situation dictates. But carbines get a laser.

Ah; gotcha. That makes sense. I agree that a laser is mandatory, even when someone prefers passive. Passive doesn't always work; you'll (almost) always be able to make a laser work somehow.

Well, the S&S M-AX came in yesterday. It's a neat unit. I mounted it on the left side, had to take it apart and flip everything around. When I got it back together, everything worked loose no matter what I did, so I took it all apart again, cleaned it, used lots of blue Loktite on the screws, a tiny bit of white lithium grease on the ball joint, and reassembled and let it sit overnight. It is perfect now. I went for a walk tonight and tried it out over maybe forty five minutes - the mosquitos found me in short order and there was no escaping them, but I was able to try lighting up near and far, get an idea what kind of throw, spot, and spill the KM1-E has. Nice light, I'm glad I didn't cheap out. The hotspot is easily good to a few hundred yards, the spill is plenty to light up, well, everything you can see in the FOV of the tube(s). It gates them no matter what, so I will need a dedicated task light - it's too bright for anything that isn't a scouting or spotting use case (I have a PrincetonTec MPLS Switch I got on clearance a few years ago, but being a genius, I got it in white and... UV modes because I didn't see a need for IR. Ooops). The KM1-E is going to be plenty for a main light, I don't see a need for anything more potent on a helmet. The Peltor mounts also block me being able to rotate it straight up, so as it stands now, I can't use it for an umbrella light indoors, which was a considered reason for going with this setup in the first place. For any kind of shooting, I'm going to have to investigate getting an actual headset that isn't a set of Peltor Sport 100's and rig it up on the AMP arms. I kinda wanted to go that direction in the first place, but it's going to be a while.

I also ordered a pair of these that came in today as well. I've seen some people post pics and videos where it offsets the green of the tubes so well that the result is nearly monochromatic shades of gray and black. That wasn't my result, exactly. You are losing some light transmission, but for my purposes at least currently, I find it's not a bad thing. I generally end up using the refocus irises as an ersatz gain control since my tubes are pretty bright, and there's street and path lights everywhere in my neighborhood. This tamps down on the need for that a fair bit. They really cut down on scintillation in really dark conditions, and seem to smooth out the image in general. I think if I'm out in the desert, away from all the light pollution, they're coming off, but for around lots of ambient light, they're a good thing. They just seem to smooth out the image and improved contrast a bit. It's hard to explain, really, but they're a net benefit so far. I need to order some plain clear ones just to keep in the practice of using sacrificial lenses.

Tonight's observations were the Milky Way, two meteors, and a rabbit. Nice walk.

I'm heading to my old stomping grounds out in farm country in a few weeks. Going to be a week, maybe two, and I'm bringing my NV rig. The old homestead is situated on the north face of one of the last northern foothills of the Adirondacks, and it's all pasture and open fields dropping away off the front porch. I hunted dozens of acres there in my teens, and every hunt started with stepping off that front porch. Not hunting this time, but I'm looking forward to doing some night observation many hour's drive from any city. Should be a very different experience, and I'll hopefully get to spy on some wildlife. Anyone ever fly with all this stuff? I read some stuff on Reddit where they were saying absolutely keep your rig with you on your carry-on, so I'll be backpacking it.

quote:

using sacrificial lenses

I would do well to do this. When it comes to the color modifiers, if you say they reduce light transmission, they just wouldn't be practical for me. It seems, more often than not, that I am dealing with dark conditions, and I've got the gain cranked.

When it comes to the helmet light, as a "task light" or for umbrella indoors, I haven't really gone down that rabbit hole. I have had two Streamlight Sidewinders, and like them a lot. It's nice to be able to switch them from an elastic headband to a helmet mount, and they have a lot of articulation. Multiple colors and intensities on tap, including IR, of course. I suppose it might be a bit under-powered, for umbrella use, but that's not something I've messed with much.

Yeah, I definitely need to get some plain clear ones. These are good for environments with a lot of lighting at night, but away from that, they’re too much. I also did get the cheapest of the cheap. There are other, supposedly superior coated lenses in other tints that make a big difference without filtering out much light at all, but they are many times more expensive. No idea how they actually compare.

As for the light, all I know is once I get a decent multi-mode admin light, all have all the lighting I could possibly need. The S&S unit with the Surefire head is impressive.

https://www.venturesurplus.com...interference-filter/


Also
https://www.venturesurplus.com...ial-window-a3144264/


Haven’t used either.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Voshterkoff,

A brief take-away from a familiarization event last night, for a friend who just got a PVS14:

An optic having night vision settings does not mean that it's actually night vision capable. My friend's Sig Romeo5 XDR has absolutely horrible light transmission. Sure, you can turn the reticle down to a somewhat appropriate brightness, but you can't see the target to put the reticle on it. If a shooter wants a red dot or holo that will have good passive performance, it seems he'll have to cough up around $700, or use an open emitter.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

My Holosun HE403C-GR works fine. No light transmission issues, two NV settings are real clear through my tubes with no bloom. I really need to get a riser, but otherwise, I had no issues looking through it mounted on a rifle in the back yard just now.

That is good to hear. It must have a lot to do with coatings. There is nothing in the fundamental design or dimensions that should make that Holosun out-perform the Sig sight.

My other take-away from that night was how I still really dig passive aiming. I know JoshNC will give me grief, but I much prefer using the Eotech, as opposed to the laser, whenever/wherever possible. My opinion on the matter is likely biased because of how much time I have spent shooting passive; I may be more proficient in that and less proficient in laser use, because I haven't spent as much time with the laser. It just feels so much more intuitive; it hardly feels different than shooting during the day.

Did some shooting last night. Two run-throughs each of three different "stages". All stages were based on a room entry/clearance scenario. The first run was with IR laser/illum, the second was white light, and the final stage was a "hasty" transition from NV/IR to "day mode", due to the conditions inside the room/building changing to "lights on".

It was a thought provoking event, and I encourage others to give it a shot. It is all contextual, of course; this was under the pretense that the individuals on the interior are still unaware of your presence, and happened to turn the lights on (or you made a night approach to already-lit structure). Therefore, as the shooter, you were not necessarily "rushed".

The laser and white stages were playing catch-up on aspects we often neglect, due to fondness for passive aiming, and typically opting to use NV over white light at night. The transition stage was where the fun learning happened.

It was my brainchild, and I think it's a relevant thing to practice here and there. It'll differ for different folks, based on rifle setup and personal preference. My rifle and mindset had me performing the following, prior to entry: NV off and stowed, switch Eotech to "day mode", rotate Vampire bezel to white. This has me with a zero-compromise setup so long as the lights are on, and an immediate white-light solution if they go off. Another shooter had the same IR tools, but an Elcan Specter instead of an Eotech. His transition lacked any fiddling with his sight, but at the cost of no passive option in the first place. A third shooter opted to stow his NVG and shoot through the window of his still-IR-enabled Eotech, using his front sight as a reference; his laser unit had an integrated illuminator, so he didn't need to fiddle with anything to have white light ready (however, if the lights went back off, he'd have only the same compromised setup, supplemented with white light, if he didn't flip his NVG back down). A fourth participant was newer to night vision and it's nuances, and couldn't keep himself from "gaming it", in an attempt to get a seemingly better performance on the stage; his approaches aren't anything worth mentioning.

It was a thought-provoking event, and I encourage folks to give it a try. Of course, it's all contextual; in this case, it was presumed that the structure/room occupants were unaware of your presence. This made it so the shooter didn't have to rush. Things would be different, if the element of surprise was absent.

Sounds fun and educational. Unfortunately, I don't have any place where I could even remotely consider doing that.

It did bring some things to mind. When I got my NODs, I did the thing probably everyone else does, and got them as close to my eyes as I could. I have since changed that, and I have them in a kind of lower 1/3rd arrangement now. They're mounted higher up, angled slightly up, and quite a bit further from my face. I don't have the field of view through them that I like, but I'm getting the best of both worlds in terms of my eyes being fairly adjusted to the ambient light level, and not getting sucked into the tubes but still being able to put the center of my view on any shadows I want to look into. It's a matter of tilting my head a bit and either looking up or down to deal with different lighting conditions, which plays directly into what you were talking about.

A laser is next, or at least before the year is out. I'm weighing options.

I like the 6933 I built, but I think I'm going to go with a Holosun of some stripe, possibly just the LE117 and a Vampire via a remote switch. The problem is, the Holosun rides at 12:00 and a front sight base would block it. I could mount it at 3:00 or 9:00, but that's defeating the purpose. Geissele ran a sale this weekend and blew out a bunch of blems. I picked up a 10.5" Mk16 and a friend is going to pair it with the correct DD 11.5" and build me an URGI clone. He got a batch of clean barrels pretty cheap in a police trade-in thing, so I'm into it for less than my 6933 so far. I know about Bendgate, that's been fixed, so I'm not worried about mounting a laser on it. I know it looks odd mounting a Holosun on a Geissele rail, but hey, I'll have something I can use that I can put on other guns after I get my feet wet and figure out what I like and what I need. If I was Moneybags, I'd just buy a Super Duty and a Raid XE, but I'm not. Besides, DaBigBR's price on Holosun stuff has the cheapest place I can find online beat by... a lot.

Oh, and I'm giving up on trying to make budget optics work. They're ok, but it feels like a silly place to save money. I'm just going to keep my eye out for an Eotech. Fuck it.

Been out of town, but now that I'm back, I've got a few things to take care of, and then my mission is scouting some desert spots where I can shoot at night. Got a friend with some bridged PVS14's I'm trying to talk into it so I'm not out there alone. We'll see what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

A laser is next, or at least before the year is out. I'm weighing options.

I like the 6933 I built, but I think I'm going to go with a Holosun of some stripe, possibly just the LE117 and a Vampire via a remote switch. The problem is, the Holosun rides at 12:00 and a front sight base would block it. I could mount it at 3:00 or 9:00, but that's defeating the purpose. Geissele ran a sale this weekend and blew out a bunch of blems. I picked up a 10.5" Mk16 and a friend is going to pair it with the correct DD 11.5" and build me an URGI clone. He got a batch of clean barrels pretty cheap in a police trade-in thing, so I'm into it for less than my 6933 so far. I know about Bendgate, that's been fixed, so I'm not worried about mounting a laser on it. I know it looks odd mounting a Holosun on a Geissele rail, but hey, I'll have something I can use that I can put on other guns after I get my feet wet and figure out what I like and what I need. If I was Moneybags, I'd just buy a Super Duty and a Raid XE, but I'm not. Besides, DaBigBR's price on Holosun stuff has the cheapest place I can find online beat by... a lot.

Oh, and I'm giving up on trying to make budget optics work. They're ok, but it feels like a silly place to save money. I'm just going to keep my eye out for an Eotech. Fuck it.

Been out of town, but now that I'm back, I've got a few things to take care of, and then my mission is scouting some desert spots where I can shoot at night. Got a friend with some bridged PVS14's I'm trying to talk into it so I'm not out there alone. We'll see what happens.

The Designate IR-V is great. I shot a NV 2-gun match with mine and it did everything I needed well. It is the current best civilian power laser on the market IMO when weighing performance, size, and cost. It’s very reasonably priced. The IR illumination is very good too, so you don’t need a separate SF Vampire head.

I agree re: avoiding cheap optics. Personally, I’d suggest a T2 in a 2.6” mount to allow passive aiming and the flip down Unity magnifier mount. Arfcom has a bunch of used t2 at reasonable prices on the used optic EE.

My big problem is my astigmatism is making dots into starry banana shapes. I keep hearing Eotechs don’t do that. I need to actually look through one I guess.

If I’m going to pony up all the way to the DIRV, I’ll probably get the one from Arisaka. The button is whatever, but the metal clamp seems worth it to me.

Got a lead on some local groups that do night shoots. Gonna try and get in touch and see if I can make some friends.