I have an SRS A1 with a 338LM and a 6.5CM barrel and I like it quite a bit. I've not been able to take her out to stretch like I'd like but in the few outings I've had I've found that I love my DTA.

I have only shot the 338 and if you want to hop into the 338 game I'd say atleast consider reloading unless you have very deep pockets. Recoil wise I shoot it with a very nice brake from MB&M and it isnt the unholy terror I was initially concerned about. Accuracy seems very nice. I have heard if you havent tried the bullpup sniper rifles, its a good idea to actually try before you buy. I got lucky and happen to like mine.

No interest in an AI? I had one in 308 before the DTA and liked it quite a bit. It was also likely far more practical for my needs but sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants. Read up on it from posts here and go in with your eyes open to costs, capabilities, needs and your wants and I think you'll walk away happy with whatever you pick.

Back from the ELD match in Wyoming -- still much to process on what occurred and what I could have done better.

For starters, if you're looking for a big rifle with the "sniper" moniker in the manufacturer's website, then just buy one. Any one. You'll have a big ol' 338LM in your safe. You can bring it out to the range here and there, show some pictures on social media, and have the neighborhood's most kick-ass BBQ gun.

If that's what you really want, just buy it. Then ignore the rest of my posts in this thread.

If you truly are interested in the process of shooting at long range and extended long range, keep reading.

First, your list of rifles.
- I really dislike DTA. The bad -- trigger, mag loading location, mag capacity, round feeding from magazine, overall "feel". The good -- it is short, but I've yet to see any situation for civilians in which the good outweighs the bad. We don't see DTAs in competition of any kind where accuracy and time are parts of the equation. Well, OK, I have seen one once in a local match. Once -- the guy sold it soon after, then never looked back.

Barrett makes good rifles, and there's now disputing that. One can buy a custom built rifle with great components that one has chosen for equal or less money.

I don't know anything about the FN.

338LM is unnecessary for for civilian target shooting, either paper or steel. There are better calibers out there, for virtually any target distance.

This is now the 3rd time I've shot the Wyoming Q-Creek ELD match with my 6.5 Creedmoor. It's not the best chambering for the match, but I don't have anything bigger and I have fun at the match. Any targets beyond 1400 yards were a real challenge for me, unless the wind was minimal. I hit some targets out to 1700 yards this year and out to 1800 yards last year. But my worst stages were almost always those where the targets were 1200 yards and beyond.

Winds were reasonable by Wyoming standards this year. I believe a 6.5--.06 won the match. Magnum 7mm and magnum .30cal rifles were common in the top shooters. I believe even a 6x47 was near the top. 54% of the targets were from 700 to 1200 yards, 46% were from 1201 to 2100 yards.

Last year the winds were noticeably higher. Offgrid reminded me that the top shooters used 7 SAUM chambers.

This year the match director opened the competition to rifles with .375 bores. Last year .338 bores were the maximum. The match director, the ROs, and buddies who were squadded with the .375 Cheytacs stated that the .375s (and the shooters, of course) did not fare well in this match. It sounds like a primary problem was that the Cheytac guys were used to shooting from flat ground positions to flat ground targets. Q-Creek ain't that kind of match -- we shoot up and down ridges & valleys, from good & not-so-good prone positions, needing adjustable bipods, and needing options for rear bags. Another problem was that the Cheytacs had so much recoil that the shooters couldn't see their impacts. Thus, they didn't do well with follow-up shots on one target, and they didn't get good windage or elevation indicators for the next target.

I was the lightest caliber in our squad of 8. I was certainly the weakest shooter, regardless of caliber. It was a great group of guys to shoot with. Calibers included 7 SAUM, 6.5 PRC, 300 PRC, 30 Nosler, 338LM. The guys with 6.5 PRC and 7 SAUM were able to control the rifles' recoil the best. The 30 magnums handled recoil almost as well, but I noticed the increased recoil's effect on the shooters when we shot in less-than-perfect prone positions. The guy shooting the 338LM is really quite good, and I'm nowhere in his league of talent. I saw how the recoil rocked him, even with a mongo (and frickin' LOUD) muzzle brake. I know he wasn't seeing all of his shots.

I will never profess to be the best shooter out there, and I struggled with dope elevation this weekend. I have not yet determined if it is shooter related (best chance), ammo related (high chance), barrel at end of life (could be, as the round count is getting up there), or scope mount/tracking (I sure as hell hope not). Anyway, sometimes over the weekend I saw my own bullet trace on longer engagements. I can guarantee the bigger calibers didn't see their own trace very often. I can pretty much guarantee the 338LM guy never saw his own trace -- only his impacts.

I feel 338LM is the wrong caliber for your expected maximum target distance of 1200 yards. Understand that guys in my neck of the woods have won steel matches with stages out to 1300 yards using 6x47, 6mm Dasher, and 6.5x47 rifles -- while competing against .30 cal magnum rifles. Sure, the 300WM rifles with heavy and high-BC bullets had the wind advantage past 1,000 yards, but overall the 6mm rifles were easier to shoot accurately.

If you think you must step up to a magnum and must use factory ammo, there are better options than 338LM.
- 300WM has been around for a long time, and it works. Don't use 195 SMK loads. There are good loads of 200+ grains out there.
- 6.5PRC is a good cartridge. The 147 ELD-M is an accurate bullet, but the BC is noticeably less than what Hornady publishes. But it still works. As more companies chamber for 6.5 PRC, more bullet options will arise.
- 300 Norma works. Definitely on the energetic end of .30 cal magnums.
- 300 PRC works. Still new to the market, but it would be high on my options list.
- 30 Nosler is geared more towards a hunter, however there is one target bullet option.

As for 338LM ammo, if you must -- the heavier bullets are the ones that fly well. Hornady's 285 grain is great round. The Berger 300 flies very well, probably even better than the Horandy 285. I've heard the 300 SMK is pretty good, too. The S&B 250 load shoots accurately at short distances and is reasonably priced for a 388LM round. But the 250-grain bullet stinks at long distance -- is has a low BC for such a heavy bullet and it tumbles as it approaches low Mach numbers. Honestly, a shooter has a better chance of hitting a 1-mile target with my Hornady 6.5 ELD-M ammo than S&B 250.

And I know that from personal experience. My 6.5s went in nose-first on the 1-mile targets, producing a very small pin-prick paint splash. When we finally did get the 250s to hit the mile target, there was a nice boat-tail-shaped keyhole paint splash.

That was quite a bit to digest.
(Apologies if my thoughts here seem to ramble)

First off fritz - I wholeheartedly thank you for your comments on here.
You put some serious thought and real-world experience into what you said.

I am however fairly set on .338LM
A big part of me simply wants a large caliber gun just for the fun of having/shooting it.

I get the impression from your posts that you're very familiar with long range shooting.
If you don't live the life every day... you're pretty embedded in it to some degree.
Most of the calibers you listed as good options... I've honestly never even heard of them.

I think you're seeing this whole thread through the lens of "OK the goal is to punch paper at up to 1200m" - and you then mentally build a rifle for that exact purpose.

I on the other hand have the lens of "I want a bigass caliber that can handle anything I'm likely to be able to throw at it - with easy(ish) to find factory ammo."

It's entirely possible that having this gun (whatever it ends up being) will give me an itch to get into some ELR stuff.
If that ends up being the case.. I would very likely start with 6.5 as I've heard nothing but good stuff about it.
(Sounds like a good excuse to buy another gun right?! )

quote:

Originally posted by creslin:

I am however fairly set on .338LM
A big part of me simply wants a large caliber gun just for the fun of having/shooting it.

A 338LM will not be a fun to shoot in terms of managing recoil and actually hitting a target with consistency, especially for someone new to shooting LR.

About 5yrs ago ran into a guy at the range, max distance 1020yds. He had a brand new Accuracy International 338LM/S&B scope, very nice set up. Guessing same experience level as you shooting at distance. Heard the same thing your posting, always wanted a large caliber.... I helped him zero it, chrono'd his factory ammo, helped with his dope... He wanted to go after the 12x16 plate at 1020, OK. Memory a little foggy on how many times he shot at it, maybe 20, he couldn't hit it. He couldn't see through his scope where he was impacting because of the recoil and his experience. I watched his impact through my scope giving him corrections. As his round count went up his misses got worse, effect of the recoil/concussion. While his barrel was cooling had him watch me shoot my 6.5x47 (jelrod1 chambered it for me). He had never heard of a 6.5x47. Wind conditions were easy, 1020yd easy shot for me. He was surprised at my hit percentage with such a little caliber. I also purposely missed so he could use his reticle to measure the miss for correction.... Also tried to get him to see what I was seeing regarding mirage, why I was holding what I was.... I had him shoot my rifle, adjusted the cheek piece to fit him, adjusted the ocular on the scope for his vision, had him dry fire several times. I was on his rifle looking at the target, gave him a wind hold, he hit on his 3rd shot. He stayed on the rifle and watched every shot. He looked over at me and said with a smile that was nice. And said I made a mistake buying the 338LM? I replied yes. We went over my rifle, what he could get in a 6.5CM....

If you want to get into LR shooting, starting with a 338LM is a poor choice. A 338LM is also a poor choice for ELR. It's really a outdated caliber. There are better options in a factory rifles/ammo, 6.5PRC, 300PRC, 300WM, 300 Norma Mag..... Any of these calibers you'll shoot better. Regardless of experience we all shoot smaller calibers better. Anyone who argues against that is not being honest with themselves.

If a friend asked me what rifle to get with your future range max. Hand-loading 6.5x47, factory ammo 6.5CM. To fill that military rifle itch, get either of these calibers in a Accuracy International AX and change the trigger out to a CG Extreme. AI AX's are very nice rifles, a bit over priced compared to having a rifle built.

quote:

Originally posted by creslin:
I’m not super concerned about recoil.
I’m still in my 30s and not frail in any way.

Yep, I've heard that before. Crow is a commonly-served dish.

Recoil in foot-pounds for a few long guns. For average weight guns, without brake or suppressor:
223 remy -- 3-4
6.5CM -- 12-13
308 Win -- 16-18
300 Win Mag -- 25-27
338LM -- 35-40 foot pounds
12 gauge shotgun -- 17-18 for 1 ounce skeet loads, 22-25 for 1-1/8 ounce hunting loads

A few years ago I shot in a 4-day Rifles Only precision rifle clinic in Colorado. One student was about 25, just retired from the US Ski Team, from downhill and super G. A brick shit house of a guy -- powerful arms, barrel chest, tree trunks for legs. He shot a 300 WSM without a brake. Since I still ski raced in giant slalom in amateur leagues, we conversed quite a bit. I think he considered me old and washed up, even with my national amateur ranking in giant slalom. Surprised he didn't call me "Pops".

We shot about 100 rounds per day in the course. I used my newly-suppressed 6.5CM. By the end of the second day, the ski team dude's shoulder was heavily bruised and he couldn't shoot worth a darn. He asked me how my shoulder was doing. I said I'm feeling the pounding, but showed him my slightly-reddened clavicle. The ski team dude didn't show for the 3rd or 4th days of the course, telling the instructor that he couldn't effectively shoot anymore.

++++++
I shot skeet, trap, and sporting clays before transitioning to precision rifles. I have some 25,000 rounds of 12 gauge under my belt, so I'm no stranger to recoil. I didn't really know how to manage rifle recoil until I had close to 10,000 rounds of medium caliber rifle shots and 15,000 rounds of AR shots under my belt.

Don't underestimate the effects of recoil.

The majority of shotgun competitors have flinch issues from recoil. During my heavy sporting clays competition years, I flinched about 1 out of 50 rounds. After precision shooting experience, I'm now down to one flinch out of 200 or 250 rounds with a shotgun. I don't recall that last time I flinched with my 6.5CM or 308, as it's been a long, long time.

I can pretty much guarantee that after a few boxes of 338LM ammo, I'd have to work like hell not to flinch. And I'm no stranger to shooting 338LM. In another Rifles Only ("RO") course, Mile High Shooting provided RO with an Accuracy International 338LM suppressed rifle for a day of one-mile shooting. We had no MV or dope data on the 338LM Hornady 285 HPBT ammo, so I became guinea pig for walking the shots into the target. It took some 40-45 shots to get really good elevations for the 1200, 1500, and 1760 yard targets. This was all done in just a few minutes, just after dawn, when conditions were perfect.

My last 5 shots produced a really good group at the mile, so I elected not to shoot with the rest of the students -- after we had the morning safety briefing. Honestly, due to the rattling from the 338LM, I had no desire to shoot even my own 6.5 for another couple of hours. So I just helped with the logistics of the course, making certain all the other guys got to shoot out to a mile.

Don't underestimate the effects of recoil.

So I started poking around online for what optic for my not-yet-purchased rifle.

I have a five nightforce scopes already:
1 SHV
3 NXS
1 NX8

I've had zero problems with these at all - so why change what works?
Decided to look into the ATACR line.

Ended up on the 7-35 page... looked at the reticle options..
I don't like very busy reticles so the tremor3 is out.
All my other scopes are in MOA - so again.. why change what works?
Ended up looking for prices on the c569 (ATACR™ - 7-35x56mm F1 - ZeroStop™ - .250 MOA - Digillum™ - PTL - MOAR)

Everywhere online that was selling the thing wanted $3600 for it.
And then I found one dude on gunbroker selling one NIB for $2900
I wasn't planning on dropping any money on this until I had the gun... but that was too good a deal to pass up.

Scope arrived today - now I just need something to put it on....

Went down to the LGS on Friday and ordered an MRAD.
Should arrive early this coming week.

While there I asked what suppressors they had in .338
Lo and behold... they had a SiCo Harvester Big Bore for $650.
Couldn't pass that up.

Will post pics of the rifle when it arrives.

Rifle arrived today!

Comes in a nice fancy pelican case and included 2 mags:



Got it home and put together:




Will be headed out to the range this weekend.
I bought 2 different types of ammo to play with.
Some hornady ELD 385 grain and some S&B 300grain.

Sadly... I've probably got about a year long wait on my suppressor

Congrats! Looks great. I think you'll love it.

Took it out to the range this morning and shot 50 rounds through it.
Rifle performed flawlessly.
Zero'd for 100m
Took it out as far as 500m.

The above-promised recoil was negligible. It felt no worse to me than shooting one of my .308s without a can.

The S&B 300grain stuff worked well enough for me so far although the 285 hornady likely performed slightly better.
For the price... I'll likely be getting the S&B until the longer range is finished.

Glad youre happy, the MRAD is a very nice rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by creslin:
Took it out to the range this morning and shot 50 rounds through it.
Rifle performed flawlessly.
Zero'd for 100m
Took it out as far as 500m.

The above-promised recoil was negligible. It felt no worse to me than shooting one of my .308s without a can.

The S&B 300grain stuff worked well enough for me so far although the 285 hornady likely performed slightly better.
For the price... I'll likely be getting the S&B until the longer range is finished.

FWIW my rifle prefers the 250gr over the 300gr S&B