Finally clearing projects off my bench and need a scope for the 18" Larue (one of their UU build kits) I'm completing next weekend.

Ideally I'd love something top-tier a la a Mk5HD 3.6-18 or a Razor, but budget won't support over $1000 at the moment. So I need serviceable.

I'm not looking for extreme magnifications, since the gun won't see any range beyond 300, practically speaking, and I don't necessarily want a huge scope on the gun.

So I was looking at the Vortex Viper PST Gen 2, which seems to meet my criteria for a decent stop-gap so I can get the gun to the range, have a serviceable scope and not wait well over a year until I can afford glass north of 2k.

Is there really that much of a difference between the EBR-7c and EBR-2c MRAD reticles? I'm seeing the former for $999 and the latter for $590. Other stats on the scopes seem the same. $400 savings is huge and would pay for the mount.

I looked at a comparison of the two reticles and, aside from their slightly different layouts and the -2c's reticle not having illumination on the ranging tree, I'm not seeing much that makes it the inferior of the -7c.

Thoughts/suggestions? If I could be out the door with a scope and a Scalarworks or Larue mount for $1k, that would be swell.

Reticle preferences are quite personal. What is great for one shooter in his course of fire may not be so hot for another shooter in a different game. The 7c is a newer design. Vortex appears to have discontinued the 2c, and that's likely why the 2c models cost less.

I use more simple reticles -- without "Christmas Tree" holdover/windage marks.

IMO the 7c's holdover is easier to use, primarily due to the positioning of the mil numbers. The finer graduation markings of the horizontal line of the reticle will be useful for some shooters. Or it might be too busy for others.

A big question with such reticles is your intended use.:
- Will you be shooting at extended distances? As in 300-700 yards? Or more.
- Will you dial elevations or do you prefer to holdover?
- Will you carry an elevation and windage dope chart on you or your rifle for the longer distances?
- Will you engage multiple targets at various distances in a short time period?

If it's not going to be used over 300 yards, and you don't want a large scope, consider a fixed 3x-4x prismatic. They're noticeably lighter and more compact that traditional magnified scopes, and 3x-4x is plenty for 300 yards and in.

Options range from something fancier around $1000 like an ACOG, or something less expensive and more diminutive like the Primary Arms SLx Micro 3x at ~$300 though you'll likely want to upgrade the PA mount too, which adds a bit more (they can use any ACOG-compatible aftermarket mounts).

And these have illuminated reticles, so can also be used similar to a red dot at closer ranges via the Bindon Aiming Concept.

The PA SLx Micro is seriously small for a 3x optic:

Primary Arms has new stuff coming out soon.
A 1-6, 3-18 and a 5x prism.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-new-products

Ooh... That 5x MicroPrism could be even better here!

I have that exact PA 3X microprism. I can’t find anything not to like about it. Worst review I heard was the mounting hardware is a bit soft and when dropped into a steel plate it bent the mount. Optic was fine. Mount was toast. I can live with that for my uses.

Yep. The mount is the only complaint I've seen, and that's an easy fix considering all of the various available ACOG mounts out there.

Hell, even some of PA's own example images show the MicroPrism in a replacement mount. (For example, that image with the bronze AR I posted above is an official Primary Arms photo from their product page, showcasing their MicroPrism in a Trijicon mount.)

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
I'm not looking for extreme magnifications, since the gun won't see any range beyond 300, practically speaking, and I don't necessarily want a huge scope on the gun.

I somehow passed over this point. Now the "DMR type AR" comes into focus.

As I see it, DMR rifles are specialized for targets at 300-600 yards, or maybe a little more. An 18 power scope is totally overkill, maybe unless you plan to compete in steel matches along with precision bolt action rifles. I do use scopes with 15 to 20 power top ends for such shooting competitions. I'm engaging hard-to-see targets out to 700 yards for my AR15, and I'm spotting for partners engaging at 800-1000 yards.

Unless this rifle will be dedicated to shooting tiny groups on paper targets from a bench rest, an 18 power scope is unnecessary and likely counter productive. But if you're shooting in such manner, the rifle isn't a DMR, it's a bench rest gun. If you really want a zoom optic for out to 300 yards, a 2-10x or similar will do quite nicely. I have two AR15 uppers with 16" barrels that have such optics. One of those is a Viper PST Gen II, and it's a very nice scope.

Now for the optics, reticle, 300 yard target limit, and 223 ballistics.
My 18" barrel rifle shoots well with Hornady 75 HPBT match ammo. Muzzle velocity of 2650 fps. Scope zero at 100 yards, 2.7" sights over bore, and I'll use JBM ballistic data for 5,000 foot air density elevation. Your air might be a little denser, but at 300 yards the differences are minimal.

Elevations in mils for dialing or hold overs for my load assumptions:
.4 mils at 200 yards
1.2 mils at 300 yards

Windage in mils - holds or dialing, given a 10 mph crosswind from either 3 or 9 o'clock:
.2 mils at 100 yards
.5 mils at 200 yards
.7 mils at 300 yards

IMO you don't need either the 2c or 7c Vortex reticles. Total overkill. These reticles become useful at target distances of 500-800 yards.

I bought an ADM QD mount and just put the cantilever and the ADM. The soft cantilever is necessary for me unless I go extreme nose to CH which I don't usually go so close. The cantilever gives me a little play in the eye relief. I don't plan on dropping it on a steel plate. I guess no one plans on that but I choose to live dangerously. lol

I won't use anything that isn't QD of some sort if I can help it.

IOR Valdada M2 4X24 CQB illuminated reticle. I run mine out to 600 in my 5.56 and .308 ARs. Old school and kind of hard to find, but built like a tank and just flat smooth works!

I have the same rifle and I went with a Vortex Viper PST II in 3-15 with an ADM Recon mount. At the time I bought it for something to try shooting out to 500yds or so without spending more than I had for money. For the money that I spent and the accuracy I got I’m happy with the bang for the buck ratio.

EDIT: I went with the 7c reticle to keep the numbers out to the edge.

A friend of mine is with a local Marine Corps league that provides free funeral services to retired vets that have passed.
They are doing a raffle for a rifle and a local company donated some optics.

ARKEN OPTICS > https://www.arkenopticsusa.com/

Don't know how good they are but thought I would give them a plug for the gracious gesture.
The scopes look pretty good.

Maybe check them out.

The least expensive optics are generally manufactured in China. We all have purchased products made in China, and we all will do so again in the future. At some point each of us must decide if we are going to minimize our national issues with China, or go forward as if it's nothing.

Vortex Venom, Arken, and certain Primary Arms optics are made in China. And yes, I own a Chinese Vortex scope, but I won't buy another.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Finally clearing projects off my bench and need a scope for the 18" Larue (one of their UU build kits) I'm completing next weekend.

Ideally I'd love something top-tier a la a Mk5HD 3.6-18 or a Razor, but budget won't support over $1000 at the moment. So I need serviceable.

I'm not looking for extreme magnifications, since the gun won't see any range beyond 300, practically speaking, and I don't necessarily want a huge scope on the gun.

So I was looking at the Vortex Viper PST Gen 2, which seems to meet my criteria for a decent stop-gap so I can get the gun to the range, have a serviceable scope and not wait well over a year until I can afford glass north of 2k.

Is there really that much of a difference between the EBR-7c and EBR-2c MRAD reticles? I'm seeing the former for $999 and the latter for $590. Other stats on the scopes seem the same. $400 savings is huge and would pay for the mount.

I looked at a comparison of the two reticles and, aside from their slightly different layouts and the -2c's reticle not having illumination on the ranging tree, I'm not seeing much that makes it the inferior of the -7c.

Thoughts/suggestions? If I could be out the door with a scope and a Scalarworks or Larue mount for $1k, that would be swell.

Vortex PST Gen2 1-6.

More than enough scope for 0-400 yards.


I have a 3-15 PST2 with the EBR 2c reticle. Personally I would save the $400 and be a little closer to an eventual upgrade.

Thats magnification overkill for hitting steel. If you are wanting to print small groups the 3-15 may be just the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
A friend of mine is with a local Marine Corps league that provides free funeral services to retired vets that have passed.
They are doing a raffle for a rifle and a local company donated some optics.

ARKEN OPTICS > https://www.arkenopticsusa.com/

Don't know how good they are but thought I would give them a plug for the gracious gesture.
The scopes look pretty good.

Maybe check them out.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/k6ZtdpBvR3Q" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I've got an Arken EP-5 and it's at least on par with the Vortex Strike Eagle of the same specs (5-25x56), if not better. I have it on my AR and haven't even dialed it in yet, so I'm unsure of how well it'll stack up in terms of longevity and thus not willing to endorse it yet.

If you can live with SFP either the Trijicon 2.5x-10 or the Trijicon 4x-16x would probably work for you, and honestly would probably be the best glass you could get for the price. See https://www.eurooptic.com/Trij...scope-Closeouts.aspx

There were several Steiner 3x, 4x and 5x scopes also on sale recently that were an excellent value and would be solid choices. Light, rugged, very good optics and a lot cheaper than an ACOG which is their main competitor. As others have said, if you're looking to shoot IPSIC sized plates out to about 400 yards these would work as well, even if they don't have much magnification. See https://www.scopelist.com/Stei...-Sight-8798-556.aspx Also available at Eurooptic for same price.

quote:

Originally posted by vulrath:
I've got an Arken EP-5...I have it on my AR and haven't even dialed it in yet, so I'm unsure of how well it'll stack up in terms of longevity and thus not willing to endorse it yet.

Longevity can only be evaluated over the long term, with lots of use and/or abuse.

Many moons ago our only scopes included lower powered models, fixed magnification, limited zoom capabilities (say 3-9x), simple crosshair reticles, and capped turrets. Many Leupolds and Redfields of this type are on hunting rifles that have been passed down through the generations, and they still work. We often ignored the zoom capabilities, and the elevation/windage settings weren't touched for years.

For those of us playing the steel/precision/PRS game, we continuously futz with zoom, elevation, and sometimes windage. Anyone around this shooting game knows that scope erectors can fail relatively quickly. We don't drop rifles and break the optics -- we rotate knobs and the interior mechanisms wear out.

I've been in matches where seemingly all scope brands have failed erectors at one time or another. Vortex, Schmidt & Bender, Leupold, Athlon, Premiere, Burris, Sig Sauer, Steiner. Never been around a Nightforce failure, but heard of one from a Sigforum member. Value-line scopes seem to fail more quickly, but both expensive Vortex and S&B have shown issues. I know of optics that have failed within their first month of use, or the first season.

I have three Nightforce 3.5-15x NXS F1 scopes that absolutely pass my longevity standards. Had them more than a decade. One was on a heavy 308 bolt action -- I dropped the rifle about 2 feet onto concrete, landing on the left turret. The scope went back to Nightforce -- they replaced the illumination & parallax controls, confirmed the tube & glass were good, and I've continued to use the scope without issues. The other models have fallen off the back of an ATV, been banged around in competition, accompanied me on airline travel, and been moved from one rifle to another. Add to this thousands of rounds shot -- 6.5 CM, 308 Win, and 223 Remy.

Over the short run we can determine the glass clarity, the "color" of the glass, the reticle's utility, and the turret feel. With a little tall target and box testing, we can determine if the turrets track repeatably, and if the mil/MOA system is accurately calibrated. If the erector system fails quickly, we know there is no longevity. But true longevity tests take a long time, or maybe a crap ton of shooting in a relatively short period.

I'm pretty comfy that my Nightforce ATACR scopes also pass my longevity test. Same for my Vortex Viper PST II. Had these scopes for years, with lots of use. My Leupold Mark IV scopes didn't pass -- mushy turrets, dialing lash, and vague parallax. I don't have much longevity confidence in my Chinese-made Vortex, even though it's doing fine so far.

Good post fritz, I always learn something about scopes when you respond.

As far as wearing out a turret.
I suspect that a large percentage of owners will never have that issue or even wear out a barrel.
Quite a few ranges are only out to 600 yds or less, at most they are dialing about 13 MOA for 5.56/.223 every once and while.

I've been liking the 2.5-10x42 NF I have quite a bit.
For the shooting I do 2.5 on the low end is fine and 10x is plenty for 600 yds.
I want to ditch the PA 1-8 I have for a 2-10 but another NF is not gonna happen anytime soon so I've been looking at the PST gen II for about $850, will probably use a NF or Geissele mount, whichever is in stock.

quote:

Originally posted by powermad:
As far as wearing out a turret.
I suspect that a large percentage of owners will never have that issue or even wear out a barrel.
Quite a few ranges are only out to 600 yds or less, at most they are dialing about 13 MOA for 5.56/.223 every once and while.

You are correct -- few people will have turret elevation failures, but they do occur. Playing the steel match game definitely increases dialing elevation.

I think the wear increases when:
- The shooter returns the elevation to zero frequently, say after every target.
- Longer targets require dialing to the 2nd or 3rd revolution of elevation. And as some of us do -- we forget which rev we're on, so we spin back to zero, then back to the target elevation.

But I have still seen erectors crap out quickly. The Athlon failure occurred to a shooting buddy on his second or third match. His crosshairs stuck at around 200-300 yards, IIRC. Not a good match for him. Another buddy had a S&B PMII fail around his first month of use. A few years ago, Frank Galli of Snipers Hide had two S&B PMII scopes fail within their first few months of use. I suspect the early failures are due to manufacturing defects. The erector failures that occur down the road are likely due to erectors not being designed robust enough to take the frequent use.

One advantage of the Christmas tree holdover reticles is less futzing with the turrets -- assuming the shooter holds over & off.