I don't yet have a long-range rifle, but I would love to get my hands on one in the future. I don't know much about the topic but I just wanted to chime in to say thanks for all the great posts; I have learned a lot here and when I move forward with a purchase I feel like I'll do a better job based on the input here. Great thread!

offgrid -- yeehaw, a win. Nice shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Alpine:
starting in 2017, the speed limit will be reduced to 3100-fps, and in 2018, reduced to 3000-fps. Their reasoning is to help save steel, but I wonder if all the guys shooting 6mm's and constantly scoring high has anything to do with that?

I painted their targets two matches ago, and honestly a few of them resembled swiss cheese. Some must have been hammering them with speed, and maybe steel or solid copper bullets.

As for the 6mm bullet speed, you guys with Dashers are kicking it with reasonable MVs. If the hot-rod 6 Creedmoors or 6x47 Lapuas were at the top, then I'd see the rules aimed at the 6-bores.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
offgrid -- yeehaw, a win. Nice shooting.

Thanks fritz.

Last few months it's all coming together for me. Listening to the most consistent shooter/instructor in Colorado, fortunate I have access to his experience and knowledge. Cheek pressure, bag pressure....should be able to fall asleep on our rifles, check your level. How important it is to understand when my body is at a angle high/low...target is high/low how that much more important cheek pressure is. Understanding if that's not consistent, elevation issues. For me and I believe most, very easy to zing shots high when our bodies are going up hill or target down hill. I've put tons of rounds on my 40X 22LR, that is set up exactly like my comp rifle. Now that the 40X is a repeater, even better. High percentage of those rounds doing 1/2" dot drills at 50yds. I'll either get up with my rifle/bag...completely between shots or set up two targets about 30yds apart, go between those two targets, having to shift my position/rear bag.... focusing on cheek pressure, check my level. Add the Dasher phenomenal accuracy to all my 22LR shooting, confidence I have in these Dashers. Going after the bolts of the target hangers on the Raton practice range.... Now if I could just figure out that dang wind, just when I think I got out, wrong!

I recently put together a 20" AR. Very much like the Magpul PRS rear stock I put on it, fussed around with it quite a bit to get it just right. So important to have a stock/chassis fit us to shoot consistently. I understand it will never be as accurate as my bolt rifles. I know it's going to take some time to learn how to shoot it consistently, doing OK so far. I've yet to clean a 20 shot 1" dot drill at 100yds with it though, getting up/down between shots. I see a 22LR upper in my future.

Rear Bag Syndrome (RBS) -- likely my biggest single technique shortcoming. In my case, I relax the left hand just as the shot breaks, which drops the buttstock and sends the round high. Maintaining constant pressure on the rear bag in my #1 technique focus now.

After weekend ranch duties were done, my sister, brother-in-law, and I played with .22lr at distances of 50, 85, and 110, yards. That's the most fun I've seen them have with firearms in many, many years. Gusty side winds of 5-12 mph made them appreciate the struggles we face in matches.

I tested single pieces of 3/8" rebar as target stands, for the 3" to 6" steel targets shown near the top of page 91 of this thread. I bent 5' long and 6' long pieces of rebar into U shapes, with a 16" wide top bar of the inverted "U", then drove the vertical legs a few inches into the ground. Plenty sturdy for .22lr, but I think .223 energies would knock down the rebar supports. Our prairie grass and weeds are pretty high right now, so the 5'long rebar is a little short. The 6' piece was better, but I may try a 7' piece just for grins. I think I'm on to a cheap and portable concept for temporary .22lr target stands.

quote:

Originally posted by jelrod1:
I traded into an AIAT and got to take it out today for the first time. It came with a 20" 308 barrel but first thing I changed that. Since this is a large firing pin version I chambered a 6 creedmoor AI contour Bartlein 8 twist barrel for it and got it, and my 22 trainer cerakoted yesterday. Naturally I got to the range today and didn't have a magazine for it or my chrono so I shot a total of 8 rounds of 105 hybrids through it. I single fed and got a rough zero with 3 rounds at 41.8 of h4350 then shot one group at 42 grains. The target shown is rounds 4-8 through the barrel. I stopped there and shot the 22 repeater some. It hammers with CenterX and Midas+. Will go back tomorrow with the rest of the test rounds and the chrono but it looks like it's going to be a shooter.

Very nice jelrod1. How you doing with the two stage trigger on the AT? Considering a two stage for your 40X? As you know I have CG two stages triggers. I've shot friends rifles with the Huber and Tubbs two stages triggers. If I were to buy again, would get the Tubbs. Believe it has a better first stage, consistent pull through the first stage.

Would be interesting for you to take the AT barrel off at the range with its easy off/on, see if you get a POI shift.

I'm optimistic with the AT trigger and liking so far. It's very consistent and if this ends up being my go to rifle I'll certainly put a two stage in the 40x. I almost bought a CG xtreme last night but decided to hold off. I've got a Tubb in the shop going on a 40x and I'll get to play with it some before I decide.

I still need another S&B for the 40x. I'm using a USO on it now and even with the same height/cheek weld I'd rather have them both the same with the same controls. This 22 will end up by far my most shot gun.

Congrats on the win!

Here are some pictures of an accessory a friend is developing for shooters using Kestrels and other such devices. What do y'all think?

I don't have a Kestrel or any other meter. If I did, don't see a reason to have it mounted to my rifles, even on a easy off/on cradle.

Looks like it would get in the way, bumping it on stuff...Guessing the cradle/Kestrel would be in the way of adjusting paralax?

I see the Sidewinder as a simpler solution for dope... http://www.sidewinderindustries.com/

That looks like a nicely-executed bracket. But although I don’t have the long distance shooting experience that many regular contributors here do, and they can speak for themselves, my first reaction is to question how much demand there would be for such a thing.

When I use my Kestrel I consult it and put it out of the way. At least one highly skilled shooter I know personally attaches a ballistics card to his rifle after determining the density altitude for the day. (Added: which offgrid has demonstrated for us.)

The only continuously-changing environmental condition that requires regular monitoring is the wind, and for that the instrument must be turned to the proper direction, not clamped along the line of sight. For that, Kestrel’s own clamp on a small tripod or stand would usually be better. Also, the unfortunate thing about wind calls is that more often than not the wind at the shooter’s location isn’t what’s going on downrange.

Something else to keep in mind about such a bracket is that many shooters, especially us oldsters, would have trouble reading something mounted that close to our eyes. I can’t quite tell how it’s attached to the gun; can it be moved forward/back?

"Don't Miss"

OP - it's an interesting concept which may provide benefits for a number of shooters who use Kestrels for elevation dope. And there are a number of them who do so -- during steel/tactical competitions, maybe 1/2 the time someone in my squad is using a Kestrel for dope.

I primarily use a Kestrel for Density Altitude ("DA") data, and as an off-and-on calibration of my personal SWAG wind-o-meter. Over time I've found that DA doesn't change enough over most days to seriously affect my dope for steel/tactical matches when target are less than 750-ish yards. Thus once I've made a mid-morning DA reading, I stick with that DA for the day. I have laminated dope cards for most of my rifles with my primary competition loads, with DA/dope listed in 1,000' DA increments. It's been awhile since I've needed to switch to a different dope card over the course of a day.

As noted above, wind readings at the rifle, with the Kestrel pointed straight forward almost always won't give the shooter the best windage solution. Furthermore, with the propeller open to the wind, there's another piece of the Kestrel hanging out on the left side of the rifle.

And then there's the carrying issues with that Kestrel support bracket on the rifle's side. The way I carry, that thing would poke me right in the sternum.

One issue I've seen with electronic dope devices (including Kestrels) is their inconsistent performance in locations where cell phone reception isn't good. In my neck of the woods, where we often shoot in rocky canyons or BF East Egypt prairies, cell reception is a joke. The Kestrel and Iphone dope guys sometimes are up a creek.

Finally, it was offgrid who so blatantly said something like "Hey Starbucks, get your head out of your (whatever device) and look around." The best shooters use environmental awareness and past experience to shoot well.

OP -- personally I think it's cool your buddy is thinking outside the box to help people with ballistics. This device will likely work well for some, however I don't expect widespread appeal. Best of luck with his development.

Guys,
Thanks for the feedback. I will pass it along to Rick. I was hoping to get some good feedback from the SigForum braintrust of long range shooters. The concerns that y'all voiced are similar to the ones I put forward to him also.
There are some tweaks to the mount that are already in the works but I think there will be a very limited market for the mount.

Good idea, but as it was pointed out earlier, it may get in the way of things like barricade positional shooting. I can hear the plastic snapping as it breaks in my mind.

Still a good idea for those ELR type matches where you're shooting prone 100% of the time.

Some misunderstanding from some previous posts on the Kestrel, none of the models require cell service. They all operate independently of any outside signals. The only caveat is some of the models have Blue Tooth (now called Link), which can communicate with external devices such as iPhone, iPad, etc. And as far as wind measurements, Kestrel offers a remote wind sensor (wind direction and wind speed) that mounts on top of a tripod. It sends the streaming data via Link from the main Kestrel unit to be displayed on the screen of the iPhone (which would be a better solution mounted on the side of the rifle), and updates your wind dope data. Obviously it is only giving you the wind data that is at your location, and not at the target or in between.

The only drawback I see with the Kestrel mounted on your rifle other than what was previously mentioned, when engaging multiple targets, you'll have to free up a hand/fingers and change position to scroll through the ballistics chart to get the range for the next target you will engage.

Here's a product that is a solution to much of what has been discussed:

https://rianov.com/index.php/product/16

There's a term called KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid, and sometimes we need to go back to the basics like a dope chart hanging off the side of your scope before relying on technology that will ultimately fail at some point.

quote:

Originally posted by Alpine:
Some misunderstanding from some previous posts on the Kestrel, none of the models require cell service.

Right. If they compute ballistics, it’s done with software that’s integral and independent within the unit using the environmental data obtained by the unit and the rifle and ammunition information entered by the user.

OK, so maybe I don't understand the means in which some Kestrels/I-phones process ballistics data.

I've shot 3 times at Coal Creek Canyon, on the north end of NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM. In two of these three matches, a squad member lost data capabilities -- one with a bluetooth Kestrel and another with a cell phone. Both blamed the loss of capabilities on "reception". All I know is my cell phone doesn't work in that canyon.

I've shot a number of times at the T3 ranch in the prairies of northeastern Colorado. In roughly half of these matches, someone from my squad lost ballistics data capabilities, generally from Kestrels, but sometimes from cell phones. My cell phone reception isn't good there.

Maybe it is a loss of cell phone reception. Maybe it is a loss of station pressure information. I just see it happen enough to know I will stick to pre-printed dope cards on my wrist coach or hanging from the scope.

****
I just remembered that one member of my squad at the PRS Battle of Breakneck match (north of Sidney, NE) had on and off issues with his Kestrel data. I had very limited cell phone reception there.

Fritz, I can only speak to what I've dealt with. I use an iPad based ballistic program to process my drops. It is a wireless / bluetooth only device. It doesn't even possess a cellular connection. I pull my atmospherics from a bluetooth device. Never had an issue in the field. The one area I can say for sure would be impacted by cell service "could" be atmospherics. That is if you pull your data from the closest available weather station. Others may be able to delve deeper into the issue.

Some of the older Kestrel's with older firmware had issues. One of those issues was the unit could not manage power consumption correctly, especially on cold days. It would shut down and/or lock up. Sometimes if the unit truely lost power, or it's computer thought it lost power, all the saved data (bullet and rifle parameters) was lost, and you had to manually re-enter that information before you could get an accurate ballistics solution. My older Kestrel 4500AB locked up a few times at the last Snipers Hide Cup held at the T3 Ranch, and during the monthly precision rifle match held in Rifle, CO., my unit was locking up almost every target engagement. Luckly I never lost my data permanantly during a match, but it did once while heading to the range to practice.

New Firmware, and the use of Lithium batteries has pretty much solved the issues of the past.
I have yet to have a malfunction with my new Kestrel 4500AB BT, and I've been running it for almost a year now, and still have 89% battery life remaining.

Following the KISS concept, I still carry and often use a DOPE card. The only time I rely exclusively on my Kestrel is while engaging targets beyond 1200-yards where changing atmospheric conditions can change the ballistics of your bullet.

I'm slowly developing a portion of my range to a .22lr shooting area. Here's the target array at 75, 90, 100, 108, and 149 yards. Targets at 133 and 205 yards are off to the left of this picture. My temporary target holders are 6' and 7' pieces of rebar bent into U shapes. I first tried 5' long pieces, but they're too short given the prairie grasses.



I invested a boatload of time chrono-ing the various .22lr ammo I've accumulated over the years. Well, until the Magnetospeed went into pissy mode and said that's it for the day for accurate readings -- grrrr. Anyway, I found that much of my "subsonic" ammo has MVs faster than I expected. Approaching supersonic, in fact. Nevertheless, a lot of it shoots rather well at distance.

The following is Federal Gold Medal 711B -- definitely on the cheap end of match ammo, but it shoots well in my Kimber. MV of 1,124 fps, SD of 14. This is five shots at 149 yards. Since I don't yet have target turrets, I'm guessing holdovers, based on the 6" dark marks on the yard stick on the right post. I need 21" at this distance of 149 yards. It's an 8" gong.

The first 3 shots are on the left side. Right-to-left wind, I held right center for winage. Wind shifted in mid-string to left-to-right, I held left edge for the final 2 shots that impacted just right of center. I'm OK with this -- I figure my hold over wasn't consistent from the first three to the last two.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fritz,

My Kimber Classic Sporter .22lr bolt action wears a Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x, with capped turrets and duplex reticle. A few weeks ago I ordered Leupold's S1 turrets (their Custom Dial System -- "CDS"), so I could dial elevation more like a modern tactical-type scope. The S1 turrets arrived this week and I installed them last night. Installation wasn't to difficult, but it does take some care and a little time. Bottom line -- they work well and I recommend them for older Leupold scopes.

Contrary to webz statements, the standard CDS turrets that I ordered do not have a zero stop (bummer). Only the CDS turrets with your load's ballistics data built into the turrets have zero stop.

From zero, I have only 20 MOA of elevation adjustment before I bottom out. This gets me to 190-195 yards, so for my 205 yard steel target, I dial elevation to the 20 MOA max and hold the target's top edge. Way better than holding over some 40 inches before the S1 dials. It's now a boat load of fun consistently hitting my 133, 149, and 205 yard targets with the lowly .22lr bullet.

A handful of pages earlier in this thread, Alpine challenged people to shoot off tripods instead of just bench and prone. I will attest to how difficult it is, unless you put sticks on the rear of the rifle. Here's my shot at it today, with the Kimber/Leupold wearing the new turrets.



I wasn't using rear sticks or a rear bag to support the buttstock -- I was reverse kneeling and resting my right elbow on my right thigh. Tons 'o fun in its own warped way, especially given the #%@$& winds today.

To put .22lr at distance in perspective to .308:

Using a 50 yard zero with my .22lr, at 200 yards at 9,000' DA I need:
22.1 MOA elevation
11.8 MOA windage for 10mph crosswind

Using a 100 yard zero with my .308 with Federal GMM 175, at 815 yards at 9,000' DA I need:
22.2 MOA elevation
5.9 MOA windage for 10mph crosswind

Nice set-up there fritz.

We shot today, and it was a great day. 60-deg and sunny.

I practiced some off of the tripod at a 12" plate at 660-yards using my 6.5x47L. Childs play, but I admit I stabilized my rifle with sticks.

Cleaned the KYL (10, 8, 6 and 4" plates) at 560-yards.

Wind was tricky shooting the 1050-yard plate, think I only hit it twice out of 10-shots.