offgrid -- you bring up some very good points about shooting position. I did see you adjusting bipod leg length more than I recall during the matches we shot at T3.

Thinking back, I had POI issues at the uber cold match at the town of Rifle this winter. For the targets high on the mountain side, I was at my bipod legs' limits, with my buttstock crammed almost to the ground. I was shooting 2 or 3 clicks high, but on your rifle I was dead on with target elevation. We discussed this many pages ago in this thread.

At last weekend's Douglas match, our warmup targets on Saturday (stage 3 IIRC) were fairly high on the opposite hill, but our shooting position sloped downward noticeably. I was at the limits of my bipod legs. A number of us on the practice line noted we were impacting 2-3 clicks higher than predicted with our dope. You stated position or parallax could be an issue. On the day of the match I used my pack to gain addition front elevation, but I think I used a smaller than normal rear bag. Which means I futzed with my shooting position. My POI was better on match day for stage 3, but I do recall impacting above two of the ten targets.

Excellent point. I have another take away from the matches.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

****
On a different topic -- do you have your ammo, dope, and wind-reading-ninja skilz all set for the upcoming long range match?

All set, just need to make sure I dial the correct DOPE, and not be the Dope behind the scope. Can easily be done dialing into the second revolution on the elevation turret at those distances, then forgetting your there when you engage a closer target.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
offgrid -- you bring up some very good points about shooting position. I did see you adjusting bipod leg length more than I recall during the matches we shot at T3.

Thinking back, I had POI issues at the uber cold match at the town of Rifle this winter. For the targets high on the mountain side, I was at my bipod legs' limits, with my buttstock crammed almost to the ground. I was shooting 2 or 3 clicks high, but on your rifle I was dead on with target elevation. We discussed this many pages ago in this thread.

At last weekend's Douglas match, our warmup targets on Saturday (stage 3 IIRC) were fairly high on the opposite hill, but our shooting position sloped downward noticeably. I was at the limits of my bipod legs. A number of us on the practice line noted we were impacting 2-3 clicks higher than predicted with our dope. You stated position or parallax could be an issue. On the day of the match I used my pack to gain addition front elevation, but I think I used a smaller than normal rear bag. Which means I futzed with my shooting position. My POI was better on match day for stage 3, but I do recall impacting above two of the ten targets.

Excellent point. I have another take away from the matches.

Talking about rear bags...pressure on them, cheek pressure has got me thinking about my rear bag choice for a match like Raton or Douglas. At those matches we're not needing to build positions with a bunch of light weight bags shooting mostly prone, albeit some awkward prone. Are we better off using a heavy rear bag, filled with sand? Smash the rear of the rifle down into the bag, almost taking away the need to squeeze it? Make a few more bi-pod adjustments? I'm humping a 25lb backpack, what's another 5lbs. I believe a big benefit of my large light weight rear bag, I'm able to somewhat support my shoulder, relaxing my upper body a bit more. Scott and I are shooting at CRC on Tuesday, I'll put 5rds at 1050yds with the light weight rear bag and 5rds with the heavy rear bag.

Question about using the Accu-Shot monopod at the rear rather than a bag.

I’ve experimented with many types of bags and never been too happy with the results. I also bought an Accu-Shot monopod several years ago and after trying different methods to overcome its tendency to sink into soft surfaces without success, that went into the “it seemed like a good idea at the time” box as well.

Recently, however, I ran across this video that demonstrated using the monopod by grasping it with the support hand and controlling the rifle that way rather than just locking the ’pod down and resting it directly on the shooting surface. (Go to about 3:00 to see the demonstration.)

Since I’ve been using that method, I’ve gotten the best results ever from shooting with a front bipod. I can stabilize the stock better than with a bag, and it’s also more convenient for quick deployments and for tracking among different targets. So, I’m wondering if any of the good rifle shooters have ever used one of the Accu-Shot monopods, and specifically if they have used the method demonstrated in the video.

sigfreund,

it's been a few years since I tried a AI monopod on my AICS chassis, bought one, sold it. My finding were it was not as stable as a rear bag. I used the technique in the video you posted. For me my support hand/forearm... is more relaxed squeezing a bag. My support hand more relax, more likely to have consistent cheek pressure. 1-1.5 MOA targets beyond 500yds, gotta have a rock solid rear support to hit those. If shooting at larger targets, where I could be a little sloppy with vertical, see the advantage to the mono pod.

There so many ways to go about this stuff. I look at techniques of other consistent shooters around me....figure out what works best for me.

Thanks for the comments as always, offgrid.

I have diagnosed my TBAC suppressor POI problem with my AR-15s. It isn't a heat problem -- either with the can or the barrel.

It's a loose can issue, with my direct thread mount. After 30-50 shots, the can tends to loosen slightly. As soon as it loosens even the slightest amount on my 18" barrel AR, I get a POI shift that starts around 2 MOA, then quickly progresses to as much as 20 MOA. As soon as I crank down the can, the POI is back to normal.

I'm not used to cranking down cans, as my 30-caliber can doesn't require much torque to stay tight on both my .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor bolt action rifles. That pracitces changes with the TBAC.

The 223 can's downward POI shift was reproducible with both my 20" and 24" barrel ARs, although it seems to be more pronounced with the 18" rifle. All in all, I'm pretty pleased that the corrective action is so simple, and that there are no major issues with my can or rifles.

Our IT guys at work would diagnose this as PICNIC -- Problem In Chair, Not In Computer.....

Thanks for the update.

Although I didn’t think of it myself, I had exactly the same problem with a TBAC can a few months ago. I’m now very careful to check tightness periodically. I’ve also been thinking of putting an O-ring behind the muzzle threads, but have been a little leery lest it affect POI due to inconsistent tightness: Something to test.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Talking about rear bags...pressure on them, cheek pressure....

I added a new piece of steel -- 24" square, 1/4" thick. It clocks in at 1150 yards from my longest shooting position. By noon I was tired of digging weeds, really needed to chop the prairie growth in front of my longest shooting position, but was too tired to chop more weeds. So I shot from my roof-top simulator to get the bore and sights out of vegetation.



I had winds of 7-ish mph at 9 o'clock at my shooting position, a head wind around mid distance, and a noticeable breeze from 3 o'clock at the target. I shoot over two shallow valleys with a blunt ridge in between. My first shot went left of target, but with good elevation. I reduced wind hold to about 1/2 value, and impacted four times in fairly quick shooting. Shot #6 missed the target to the right, as it appeared the close winds had picked up. Transitioning to my spotting scope, I confirmed that the four impacts were respectably near target center.

Back on the gun, I increased wind hold a bit and shots #7 and #8 impacted in fairly quick shooting. Back on the spotting scope, I could see these last two shots were higher on the plate.


I suspect inconsistencies in rear bag technique (and possibly a slightly different position after getting back on the rifle) caused the differences in elevation. Total group height measured 10.5" -- the last 2 shots were maybe 8-9" higher than the average of the first 4.

I really like this 1/4" steel for long shots. It's loud and I do see reaction from the lighter plate.
.308 -- 155 Scenar load from Southwest ammo

fritz,

target at 1150yds, very cool! See you in Douglas, WY this weekend?

I think I got the load nailed down on Dasher barrel #3, Kreiger. These Dashers sure do shoot!

Have 200rds now on the barrel. 32.3/Varget/105 Hybrids jumping .015/CCI450 is THE load. Holding vertical amazingly well at distance.

5 shots 100yds



4 shots at 1050yds. I put two rounds on a steel plate next to this paper target, hold the same wind and hammered out 4 shots.



5 shots over the chrono.

offgrid -- Douglas here we come. As too often, last week's Board meetings messed up my focus on play time. I will contact you for plans on driving and lodging.

Yep, trying to stretching out to longer targets. Wind is ugly in that section of the field. Tried another target at 1200 yards maybe 45 minutes after the shots at 1150. Winds switched so that all distances were from 3 o'clock. Landed only 1 of 8 shots, using a wind hold of just under 20 mph. Wind speed appeared to vary from 1-3/4 value to 2-1/2 value in just a few seconds. I called it a day for long distance work. I was still at full value plus while trying to figure out my suppressor issues at 340-400 yards.

I must ponder on my practice of taking down and stowing targets in a central box at the end of each day. It's pretty easy to do when the steel is only 8" to 12" and I can drive to the targets. Carrying 30-40 pound targets 400-500 yards is a whole different animal (the current situation for the targets over 1,000 yards). It may be better to drop the steel to the ground and cover the targets with a tarp, when I'm not shooting.

*****
Alpine -- how did the long distance match go?

offgrid -- Those are just silly accurate results with the Dasher. Nice. Very nice.

Yesterday morning a friend and I rolled up on the 1000yd F-Class range at Colorado Rifle Club to check our Dasher loads. Someone was on the 600yd line. Drove up and asked if we could take some shots from the 1000yd line....sure. He said was going to be there all day studying mirage. He had clamped a rifle scope to the concrete bench, reticle on a target... It was about 8:30, he had been there since 7:00. Mirage was just starting to "boil" wind starting to pick up, he wanted to see where on the reticle the target was...how the mirage shifted things around...interesting stuff! He put up wind flags at 600, 300 and at the target. He said the reticle had shifted on the target about 1-2" high right since he arrived. Would had like to see a video of the whole day.

He gladly followed us to the 1000yd line with his spotting scope in hand. We set up a 12" round and a 12" wide mini IPSC steel target at 1050yds past the pits, my paper target next to it. We all talked about what our wind hold should be. Having those wind flags up was nice. We both get 1st, 2nd, 3rd round hits on the steel with our Dasher "tactical" rigs. He watching through his spotter. "What are you boys shooting?!" We chatted for about 15 minutes with him after shooting, mostly talking about wind, mirage....what/where we're looking. He asked what kind of matches we were shooting. Told him about the match we were shooting in Douglas this weekend, he shooting a F-Class Open match soon.. wished each other good luck. Enjoyed chatting with him about our common thread, reading wind.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: offgrid,

fritz and Alpine, good shooting with you two yesterday in Douglas, Wy. Beautiful place to shoot, private 7000 acre ranch.

fritz, 51/60 no more FNG status for you! Nice job shooting off of sticks.

For me another 2nd place finish. The wind gods were not kind to me on the last stage, very switchy wind, dropped two Oh well, been plenty of matches I shoot a stage in constant wind, next shooter tough wind...

Thats impressive on that dasher.

My rifle build is on the backburner for a while due to time constraints...but that sure makes me scratch my head on caliber decisions...

Kudos to offgrid for a second place at the Douglas match. Or on the down side, aarrgghh for getting the shaft from switching winds, dropping a point, which pushed him out of first.

Always a pleasure listening to offgrid and Alpine during the commute to the match -- shamelessly stealing knowledge about bullets, powder, reloading, barrels, actions. Oh yeah, and that whole technique thing. Great shooting with you guys.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Thats impressive on that dasher.

...but that sure makes me scratch my head on caliber decisions...

Seeing dashers in action makes one a believer. With many of the rifle match distances being under 1,000 yards, dashers aren't giving up any practical ballistics advantage. Their accuracy is amazing, recoil is quite mild.

Offgrid made an extremely valid point on calling impacts (and thus wind) on diamond-shaped steel targets that are hung with a single strap. On a 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock point hit, the dashers don't spin the targets as fast as the more burly chamberings do. As a result, we can often better see whether it was left side or right side hit, and how far out from center the hit was.

Even my 6.5 Creedmoor sometimes spins closer (300-400 yards) and smaller (6-10" steel) targets so fast that with a number of people on glass we have no real idea where the impact landed.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
fritz, 51/60 no more FNG status for you!

dagnabbital, I was growing fond of being FNG.

I still get to keep the RBS ("rear bag syndrome") status. One of these days I'll hopefully figure out how to use a bag consistently -- not relaxing my squeeze right as I break the shot, which drops the buttstock, and sends the round high.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Thats impressive on that dasher.

My rifle build is on the backburner for a while due to time constraints...but that sure makes me scratch my head on caliber decisions...

The Dasher is a amazing cartridge, I clearly see why it holds so many records. Very efficient, holds vertical well, easy to tune.

I'm a minimalist when it comes to brass prep....commonly get single digit ES's doing very little prep with the Dasher. Friday before the match this weekend chrono'd 5rds, ES of 4! That barrel now has 1700rds on it.

I've chased calibers for the last 6yrs or so. For me it's come down to two. 6MM/Dasher, 6.5MM/6.5x47.