Has anyone here given any thought to 7x47? I've started seeing some rumblings of this cartridge on other corners of the internet, and I'm intrigued by the higher bc of the 284-class bullets...

The guys at Short Action Customs evidently have played with a 7mm Creedmoor, which functionally would not be that much different than a 7x47. Or a 7mm-08, for that matter.

The way it was explained to me --- There are great 7mm bullets out there, with very high BCs. But they're not light, and thus weigh in the .308 bullet category. Fluid dynamics states that the smaller bore of the 7mm will just not push a bullet (of the same weight) as fast as can be done with a 7.62mm bore, given the same pressure. So unless you compensate for the limited boiler room of the .308-ish case with hot powders and long barrels, muzzle velocity just won't be up to the levels seen in 6mm and 6.5mm chamberings. And for those of us in steel matches who want to keep recoil down so we can spot our own impacts, moving to a heavier bullet isn't the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:
Looks like PMM is making PRS stock QD attachments now:

Thanks for the info. I installed the looped TAB sling to my AR-10's PRS stock. I will order a PRS QD attachment for my in-the-works AR-15. Time and tromping around the prairie will tell me which setup I prefer.

I have thought about a .280 Rem AI 40° as a possible build to replace my .308 Win. I have a 280 AI hunting rifle and have been very happy with the accuracy and performance, without a lot of recoil.

I like to experiment as does my Smith and he does have the AI reamer in stock. We keep talking about it. I need to simply build one some day and see how it will perform.

Build a new rifle and work up loads as I keep several acres mowed and weed free, spend a day most weekends at the Club doing RO duties, shoot the occasional bullseye pistol match, run the Wednesday aftn shoots, continue the search for additions to the S&W revolver collection, etc, etc.

Maybe in the Winter.

Final comments from the above article:

"APPLICATION ONE: 28-30” Barrel for 1000-Yard Benchrest:
"I feel that, with a 28-30″ barrel length, my goal will be attainable and it will pull away from 6.5mm class rounds in the wind drift department."

---I will let the bench rest people comment here, as this isn't my area.

"APPLICATION TWO: 22-24” Barrel for Tactical/Sniper Matches
For tactical matches, I hoped to achieve good results with a 22-24″ barrel length, but it appears it may be difficult to attain the velocities needed."

---With many of the tactical guys moving from 6.5mm to 6.0mm chamberings, I didn't expect the 7.0mm to have a fighting chance.

"APPLICATION THREE: 16.1″ Barrel for Compact/Concealable Sniper Rifle with Suppressor
Running with a short barrel and suppressor may prove to be what the 7×47 does best. Most 16″ sniper rifles are built around the .308 Win round. In terms of ballistics, The 7×47, even with its current performance, represents a significant gain over a .308 Win in a 16” barrel. The 180gr Hybrid at 2500 FPS shoots well inside a 175gr .30-caliber bullet at the same velocity. Compared to other non-magnum rounds fired in a 16″ barrel, the 7×47 appears very promising (and it beats the .308 Win for wind drift)."

---Having spent some time with active and retired snipers, I disagree with some points. Most domestic sniper's shots are done well under 100 yards -- something like 60-70 yards. Some are as little as 40-50 yards. Wind drift means little here.

Nice snow/rain day here. Been doing some reloading for the Snipers Hide Cup, and breaking in the new 7 SAUM.

Shot today at a buddy's.

Shooting standing water bottles at 600 yards is hard. Especially with a 15mph wind out of 3:00.

Made a first round hit at 840 on a 5" plate.

God, I love this new rifle. I may never shoot another factory rifle the rest of my life. Lol

quote:

Originally posted by Alpine:
Nice snow day

Yee-freakin-haw snow. Cowabunga snow. This-is-what-Colorado's-all-about snow.

It was a stunning day skiing at Arapaho Basin. Ab-so-lute-ly stunning.

Hey you CO folks.. Tell me about the T3 match.. I'm thinking I might make the drive to attend next month.

Maybe.

What do I need to bring? The website provides a list, but then I see people with shooting sticks and tripods and such. Those items aren't listed on the "to bring" list.. Are they necessary, or can you shoot most of the stages prone or from natural or provided support?

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Hey you CO folks.. Tell me about the T3 match.. I'm thinking I might make the drive to attend next month.

Maybe.

What do I need to bring? The website provides a list, but then I see people with shooting sticks and tripods and such. Those items aren't listed on the "to bring" list.. Are they necessary, or can you shoot most of the stages prone or from natural or provided support?

Add sticks or a tripod to the list of stuff to bring. No need to bring a mat. It can be very dusty/dirty, do not have any lube on your bolt/action body except on the back of the bolt lugs.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
What do I need to bring?

We were told that the station configuration could change quite a bit after the Snipershide Cup. Some of the stations may be the same ones used in the Cup. So be prepared for calculating elevation and windage dope at each station. The current range cards may not be valid going forward.

I calculate dope from Density Altitude alone, many others use actual pressure/temp/humidity. Go with what works for you. In the colder days I shot with DAs of 4,000 and 5,000 feet. Hot summer days were either 6,000 or 7,000 foot DA.

If you have a choice of chamberings, leave the 308 Win at home. 6.0mm and 6.5mm chamberings provide a clear windage advantage, and with lower recoil. Offgrid and others do quite well on the long stage (1100-1350 yards, assuming they have it going forward) with 6x47 -- those skinny bullets fly well in our thin air. No need for magnums to reach that far.

As it was set up before -- 7 stations were 5 shots, 1 station was 6 shots, 2 stations were 10 shots. It's nice to have a 10-round magazine. But I found out that using my tall 10-round AICS mag wasn't optimal at all stations. The 10-round mag sticks out a ways below the gun and it interfered with gun placements on two stations (5-round stations) last match.

If I come, I will be bringing my 6.5x47/JAE/Defiance Beanland build with my 30P-1. I have two 10-round AW mags for it. I had no intention of trying to stretch out a tired old 308 to that distance.

The range card link on the website is broken anyway, so I had planned on having to calculate at the station once told the ranges and target sizes.

The DA information is helpful, though I'm sure Applied Ballistics would be pretty close anyway.

Offgrid says to bring sticks or a tripod. Is this required, or just "nice to have"? Can we not shoot prone at every station (or use natural or provided barriers/rests)? I don't currently own sticks or a tripod, and I don't know that I'd be able to get enough practice in time to make the 28 hours in the car to get there/back worth it if I'm trying to use equipment I've not practiced on...


What is the format of this match anyway? Is the whole thing timed from start to finish, or just each individual station timed, or.. ?

I'm a wee bit out of shape, so carrying a 20# rifle plus gear 1.5 miles, well, if the whole thing is timed start to finish, I might need to rethink things.

For the last handful of matches, we shot one 5-target station using shooting sticks or tripod as support. We had to shoot from a specific location (peg in the ground) over the top of hay bales. Without sticks/bipod we would have shot kneeling or standing with a sling, at 3 MOA-ish targets, from 380 to 680 yards. Prior to that, this station was shot from under a high-power electrical tower, with one part of your gun resting on the concrete tower pylon. Both scenarios were challenging. FWIW, I let two new guys use my tripod/HOG saddle last match. If you show up without sticks/tripod, many shooters are happy to lend their toys.

Current format is 4 minute time limit per station (mainly 5 shots), the clock starts with you holding your rifle and just ready to drop into position. That's more than enough time for all but the shoot-shack station, where you have 5 different positions for 5 targets -- 3 on the lower level and 2 on the upper level. Many people only get 4 shots off on this station.

The mover station isn't timed per se, but you get 4 passes in a row for your 10 shots. Three shots per pass isn't that hard to do if you've played with movers before, but it still requires focus and knowing how to work your bolt action without disturbing your sight picture.

The 10 shots on the long station (1100-1350 yards) isn't hard in 4 minutes. Two shots per target, with the first hit earning two points and the second hit earning one point.

Currently, two prone stations require moving a few yards to a second position. Plenty of time to do this.

The close targets (300 to 350 yards) can be pretty small on some stations, say 1.5 MOA. No big deal in calm conditions, but they're an issue with the ranch's normal breezes.

It's a fair hike from the valley floor where we park vehicles up to the shooting stations on the valley rim to start each morning. Maybe 200 foot elevation gain over a 1/4 or 1/3 mile to the rim. There is maybe 50 to 200 yards between each station walking along the rim -- mainly flat, but a couple stations require a little up and down. The biggest hike while shooting is going from station 10 (the shoot shack) back to station 1 (1100-1350 yards), if you don't start on station 1. No clocks are running while moving from one station to the next.

Ok, the walking bit doesn't sound too bad, and the fact that moving from station to station doesn't have a clock is good. I think I can do all that.

The sticks bit.. I'm not looking to spend a fortune here, but also don't want junk gear.

What does a decent tripod/HOG saddle run? What are less expensive alternatives? If I choose to use sticks instead of a tripod, what are the top of the line sticks? What would be considered mid-grade?

I have seen both offgrid and Antony clean that station -- 5 for 5. Offgrid with a Bog Pod (I think, but not certain) shooting sticks and the combination of a medium and a large tactical pillow to stabilize his shooting position. Honestly, it was an amazing performance -- none of the rest of squad wanted to follow him. Anthony did it with a camera tripod with a camera quick release plate attached to his gun's fore end. Bog Pod sticks should be less than $100.

The best I've done is 3 hits on 5 plates with Hog saddle, camera tripod, and mid-sized tactical pillow. I had the tripod from many years back, so I just made certain the screw attachment matched prior to ordering the Hog saddle.

The pig saddle definitely costs less than the Hog saddle. I doubt there's a functional difference for the vast majority of us. I recall that just about everyone on the web has the same price. If you have a half-way decent camera or spotting scope tripod with the screw attachment top, use that for support. Manfrotto seems to be a common tripod -- big web camera stores tend to battle for the low prices. Camera tripods can go from cheap and flimsy, to rock stability and big bucks. What can really get expensive is the swivel head (ball) interface between tripod and the pig/hog saddle. The cheapest heads may not be strong enough to support a heavy gun.

Regardless of the way you go, the tactical pillows really do help to stabilize your shooting-hand arm, and thus the gun. They are amazingly light, but take up quite a bit of pack room. I still think they're leaning towards the Prius crowd, but since I now have a pillow, I guess my man card could be recalled at any time.

I've got a Targus tripod that was.. I don't recall.. Perhaps $70 new? It has the plate on the top with the screw attachment. I usually use it for my chronograph. I guess I could look to see if I can attach it to the bottom of my JAE. Either that, or fashion something up to act as a rest that I can attach to the top of it and then use a shooting bag on top of that rest. I'll look into it.

Thanks for the info!!

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
The DA information is helpful, though I'm sure Applied Ballistics would be pretty close anyway.

Just for grins, I assume your AB (ap?) can compensate for absolute elevation changes, actual station pressure, temperature. I have learned that a 1,000' change in DA (which easily occurs during the course of our 5-6 hour shooting day) means nothing for the targets out to 800 yards. The steel targets have enough vertical to compensate for a certain amount of elevation errors.

But the 1350 yard target is a different matter. With my 6.5CM factory ammo, each 1,000' DA change moves my impacts up or down 1 MOA and our target can't be much more than 2 MOA tall. Since I aim at the vertical center of the plate, a 1,000' DA error puts me dangerously close to the steel's top or bottom edges.

****
I think your experimentation with existing tripod and shooting bag is a good idea. One instructor told me that we really learn to shoot alternative positions by dry firing. Figure out what methods allow you to the hold the cross hairs stable in the basement, then transition to the field with live ammo.

Yes, I use Applied Ballistics on an Android phone. It can use either manually entered data, data transferred via bluetooth Kestrel, or station data from the nearest station.

It uses GPS and topo maps to figure out absolute altitude.


I will definitely be experimenting via dry-fire first. Would the stations requiring this be from a kneeling/seated position, or standing?


Also - fritz - YGM.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Would the stations requiring this be from a kneeling/seated position, or standing?

For the past few months the one tripod station is best (IMO) shot from a low-ish kneeling position. A seated position doesn't get the gun high enough for the bullet to clear the hay bales set a few yards in front of the shooter. Gun bore height of roughly an office desk. Say 28-34 inches high. I'd try for a little closer measurement of what I do, but pretending to hold a gun at that height and in that position will almost certainly freak out some people in the rest of the office.

Of course, who knows what will be set up after the Cup.

I need to consider the competition for which you sent the link. I will just be returning from a business trip, so I'm uncertain right now.