offgrid -- Yep, I'm planning on the May T3 match, as I won't make it in June. I'm still on the waiting list for the Cup, so I expect that won't happen for me. Alpine convinced me to get a new Spec-Ops pack in preparation for our Thunderbeast Team Challenge shoot in August, which means no more ski pack at a T3 match.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
offgrid -- Yep, I'm planning on the May T3 match, as I won't make it in June. I'm still on the waiting list for the Cup, so I expect that won't happen for me. Alpine convinced me to get a new Spec-Ops pack in preparation for our Thunderbeast Team Challenge shoot in August, which means no more ski pack at a T3 match.

Cool!

Oh man, order a supressor, now the Spec-Ops pack.... What's next, Crye pants, 20" AI 338LM?

My Thunderbeast Team Challenge partner and I practiced together today. Look out, we have a plan, it's a simple plan, don't miss!

You're probably right. I devote more time to long range shooting because I want to excel at it.

I'm guessing that makes your point also and you probably want to skip over the next part.


In long range shooting there are 4 big components that must come together to achieve the required performance. These are marksmanship, ammo, rifle and optics or sights.

We have covered a lot about the rifle (caliber, barrel, etc,) and we did touch quite a bit on optics but not a word about non-optical sights. I'll skip over those as they are really specialized and almost exclusively used in competition, which is something that is not relaxing for some people.

We have also talked about ammo and the need to handload with LR range bullets for some caliber (like .308) more than others. When I talk long range here, I mean distances longer than 600 yards. Provided your ammo will get to the target reliably above the speed of sound and your sight allows for resolution of one MOA or less, the most unpredictable component is marksmanship.

As I have stated earlier, that's the one that we eschew in this and other discussions. Everybody thinks they are above average shooters and provided they have the best rifle, ammo and scope, they can hold sub-MOA all day long at any distance.

I would think I have busted that belief enough times by now that people would be more circumspect when making accuracy claims. Does it matter if people make obviously ludicrous claims? Not really, they only fool themselves.

But we are here to discuss and it is hoped, learn from one another, so let's talk wind, and I don't mean the kind made by some people claiming impossible levels of accuracy.

The first thing to realize about wind is that it can very unpredictable and inconsistent. Our job as marksman is to observe the wind and try to figure out how it will affect the trajectory of our bullet at any given time. We have access to tables, PDAs and windmeters but all that is useless if we do not understand the limitations.

Let's talk 1000 yards because that's what I shoot a lot. It is important to understand the trajectory of your bullet. When I shoot prone at the 1000 yard target, I know that my bullet will be low for the first few hundred yard and will steadily rise to its apex at about 650 downrange when it will be about 11 feet in the air. Wind comes in gradients; near the ground it is not anywhere near as fast as higher up. So, why do I see people sticking their windmeters as high as they can, at the firing line? If you're shooting over flat terrain, your .308 bullet will not reach that height for another 500 yards or more and I can assure you that the wind will probably be very different at that point.

Conversely, if you are firing across a valley, your bullet will be experiencing the wind much more than if it's just slowly rising from ground level. So the topography of the terrain is something that you need to keep in mind.

At the Phoenix range, the ground is flat and the targets are at the same elevation as the firing line. In Lodi, there is a big-ass drop at about 600 yards downrange and your bullet is probably 50+ feet above ground when it gets there, fully exposed to the wind. So know the trajectory of your bullet on its way to the target and visualize how that fits over the terrain on its way there. The higher off the ground it will be the more impact the wind will have on it.

On a range, we have wind flags at known distances and we can figure out which flags will show more possible effect on our bullets. For instance at my local 1000yard range, the flags at 600 yards are ones I monitor because that's where my bullets are most exposed. The flags at 200 yards are worthless to me as my bullet is at maximum velocity and only a foot or so off the ground. When there are no flags, you need to observe tree branches, grass, cows, whatever at the middle distance onward, but again, be mindful of the topography of the terrain and make adjustments for that.

When it comes to wind, you want to see what is happening upwind from the trajectory because that's what's coming at your bullet. I know that my bullet will take about 1.5 seconds to get to 1000 yards, and about 1 second to get to 700 yards or so. If the wind picks up and lets off quickly, you need to time your shot to account for the delays, that gets tricky at longer distances. I will also state that more points have been lost due to let-offs than to wind pick-ups. You're going along, blazing away at the target, holding properly into the wind and all of a sudden, the bullet impacts exactly where you were holding. You look at the flags, too late, of course, and notice that they are down, or even going in the other direction.

What you need to do is decide where you will hold for the next few seconds and break the shot quickly. Then you need to look at the conditions even before the target is serviced to see if the conditions changed while the bullet was traveling. If you wait for the target to come up to check the conditions, you will miss stuff. You need to monitor before the shot; decide what your hold is going to be and take the shot fast enough that a change won't affect the shot, and then get back to check the conditions as soon as the shot is taken and you have done your follow through.

Next up, we will discuss mirage and how to make it work for you.

Relaxed yet?

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Oh man, order a supressor, now the Spec-Ops pack.... What's next, Crye pants, 20" AI 338LM?

My Thunderbeast Team Challenge partner and I practiced together today. Look out, we have a plan, it's a simple plan, don't miss!

Although I've seen some cool Crye pants, I think it will be jeans or cargo pants for awhile. Tax day was fugly for me. Upgrading scopes to the new F1 ATACR models is on hold. If I ever get a 338LM it will have a real barrel -- maybe 28" and possibly a GAP. And GAP has two 6.0 Creedmoors for immediate delivery. #&@%$ taxes.

Alpine and I are working to coordinate practice days for the Team Challenge. Assuming the carbine guy (aka me) still gets multiple shots at targets, I figure carbine guy goes first, carries a boatload of ammo, and dopes the wind for rifle guy. Which means I'm also pack mule guy and Alpine gets to be the don't miss guy.

Nikonuser.

Your posts are interesting, but to be frank...you annoy me. I dont need a lecture on excelling at anything. Ive excelled at plenty in my life. One of them is to know when to ignore blathering.

However, by all means enjoy your shooting. As I said a bit back...to each his own.

Wind is what makes this sport so much fun. It would be boring if you had calm conditions for every shot. Not that the occasional calm day at the range isn't a good time.

Shooting with a wind coach was an eye opening experience for me. Watching the wind at multiple ranges and trying to decide when to shoot and seeing how a pro reads it was fun. I learned a ton and even starting shooting in the push instead of waiting for the best possible conditions. Got to see first hand on guessing wrong at a mile by 1 mph resulted in a miss. I'll be back at that elusive target soon enough.

Having a great time and learning. I don't know that's possible since I'm not competing with anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Wind is what makes this sport so much fun. It would be boring if you had calm conditions for every shot. Not that the occasional calm day at the range isn't a good time.

Shooting with a wind coach was an eye opening experience for me. Watching the wind at multiple ranges and trying to decide when to shoot and seeing how a pro reads it was fun. I learned a ton and even starting shooting in the push instead of waiting for the best possible conditions. Got to see first hand on guessing wrong at a mile by 1 mph resulted in a miss. I'll be back at that elusive target soon enough.

Having a great time and learning. I don't know that's possible since I'm not competing with anyone.

Don't worry, we'll compete Saturday. I want your $1!

I'll gladly part with it. You have me thinking steak, pizza, beer and smoked trout

Looking at the forecast for the next day or so:

KCWA 301122Z 3012/0112 35005KT P6SM SKC
FM301400 36008G17KT P6SM FEW040 SCT050
FM302100 03005KT P6SM SKC
FM010300 00000KT P6SM SKC

Looks like light winds from the North will be prevailing at least thru Friday. Range runs N/S correct? (Above says from early Friday morning wind calm sky clear with more than 6 miles visability)

quote:

Originally posted by jlemmy:
Wind is what makes this sport so much fun. It would be boring if you had calm conditions for every shot. Not that the occasional calm day at the range isn't a good time.

Shooting with a wind coach was an eye opening experience for me. Watching the wind at multiple ranges and trying to decide when to shoot and seeing how a pro reads it was fun. I learned a ton and even starting shooting in the push instead of waiting for the best possible conditions. Got to see first hand on guessing wrong at a mile by 1 mph resulted in a miss. I'll be back at that elusive target soon enough.

Having a great time and learning. I don't know that's possible since I'm not competing with anyone.

Shooting with a wind coach is a great way to learn, provided of course that he or she is sharing the corrections and the reasons for the corrections with you. In competition, I have seen coaches directly making adjustments to the shooters scope without informing said shooter of the corrections. All the shooter knows to do is aim dead center and pull the trigger on command. Sometimes they may instruct the shooter to hold off on the target just before breaking the shot.

I frequently shoot in pick-ups because the wind is somewhat more predictable at that time, until it changes, of course. The issue at that time is to know how much to get ahead of the building wind so you have to be bold in your wind correction.

Trying to judge the wind speed in MPH is not something that I do nor do I know of any other wind coach or seasoned competitor who does that. It would actually slow down the pace of shooting and could cause errors in data entry or table look-ups and I just don't think anyone can reliably judge a 1 or 2 or even 3 MPH change in wind 3,4, 5 or 600 yards out. What I do and I suspect many others do is look at the indicators, flags, grass, branches, mirage and figure out that the conditions look something like "that's 3 and a half lines right," or "put in 2 MOAs left and then hold in the 9-ring right." You translate your condition read to a hold or correction on the rifle. This is where it is useful to know your load and trajectory (dope) extremely well.

What I have found over the years is that the corrections coming from tables or calculators are usually overstated. The wind is rarely consistent for the entire trajectory of the bullet; a 5 MPH full value right wind over a 1000 yards simply does not happen, or at least not at any of the places I have shot. What is more likely to happen is to have various wind conditions at different lines down to the target and figuring out the predominant condition becomes a challenge. Again, knowing your trajectory is critical.

Before I talk about mirage, let me take a time out and explain my reason for saying that you can't learn at any appreciable speed how to shoot at long range when shooting by yourself.

I'll stick with the 1000 yard course of fire with a .308 because that's what I know best.

In high power competition, each and every shot you take is scored and recorded. This means that every time you pull the trigger, the target will (should) go down to be marked and scored and is then run back up to be recorded. In your spotting scope, or riflescope, you see exactly where your shot impacted within 10 seconds (usually) of you taking the shot. This is instant and accurate feedback. Some people record each shot in a log book, I now longer do that in F-Class; my total concentration before and after the shot is on the conditions and I don't want to be distracted with writing little notes. I know where I was holding, I know what the conditions were when I broke the shot and I know what the conditions were just after I broke the shot, and now I know the result.

In a match, I will do this 20 times for record within a half hour and I will do that same scenario three times during the day. That's 60 shots marked and scored and that does not include sighters. Sighters is a whole 'nother story in themselves; that's how you can test the wind before record shot.

During the course of a match I also get to see how fellow competitors are doing. If I shoot a 9 out the right and the shooter next to me shoots a 10 or an X at the same time, what did he or she see that I didn't? Or reverse the scenario, you shoot the X and he shoots a 9 at 3 o'clock. That means you were looking at the proper indicators and he wasn't. I can assure you that we talk after each match; we are all trying to get better and we all help each other.

At the end of a day match; I will have shot 60+ rounds, all marked and scored individually and will have discussed each string of 20 with fellow shooters who were shooting under the same conditions, at the same distance with the same caliber. And we all speak the same language; MOA, rings, flags, mirage, etc. Do this a couple times a month for a few years and throw in a sprinkling of big matches where you shoot for 2-3 days straight, add in the Nationals for 7-8 days and you will learn pretty fast.

Beyond that, you get to see first hand the equipment that people use and how they use it. The Internet is great for getting data, it's more difficult to extract valid information from that data. On the Internet, people talk about being able to shoot sub-MOA at all distances, it's another thing to see folks on the line hitting the 10 and the X in tricky conditions. That 5-inch X is VERY small at 1000 yards, better read those flags correctly.

Please note that a lot of sling shooters, the folks who suit up in jackets and tie themselves to their target rifle, still record all their shots and plot the results in their notebook. They adjust their iron sights for what seems like every shot and they hold dead center on the target. Some of them can fade a little but that's more difficult to do reliably. They usually shoot at a slower pace than we do and they have more variations in conditions, shot to shot, because of that. For example, in great conditions, with nothing changing, I will put a shot downrange as soon as my target puller can bring the target back up and my scorer calls out the score. That can be a shot every 10-12 seconds if all is going well. A sling shooter can easily take 45-60 seconds between each shot. It's a different game but the same course of fire.

I would never train with anyone who just told instead of taught. That just wouldn't be a productive expenditure of ammo. After a couple days I started making my own calls. If I called wrong he would explain what and why I missed. Wind was never talked about in MPH. After a couple misses just a few inches off the 1760 plate he just tried to quantify how much the call was off. It was only a 24" steel square. Spent a lot of time observing conditions and watching flags. For me its unfortunate that I have to spend a day in the car to get to a "long" range. I'll get back out as often as I can but it won't be as often as I like. At least I spent some time experimenting with different ways to deal with wind. Holding / dialing, waiting for same condition / firing again before condition changed, calm / push, etc.

Excellent, that's a great way to learn.

I'm "lucky" in that my 1000 yard range is only 50 miles away.

Now let's talk about mirage for a little bit.

First a definition. Mirage is actually a misnomer for the atmospheric phenomenon that we are going to talk about. A mirage is something like the effect you see on a long paved road in summer, where it looks like water, or even a huge lake. As you approach it, it disappears. We hear stories about people in the desert pursuing these mirages.

The effect we are talking about is actually an atmospheric distortion of light due to rising heat and temperature differences between the ground and the air. We will use the term mirage, because that's what everybody uses and understands. So, when I talk about watching the mirage, I am not looking at that non-existent body of water downrange, I am talking about observing the atmospheric distortion.

Early in the morning, there will be little to no mirage, but as the Sun warms up the ground, it will start to manifest itself and can even become painfully obvious in the riflescope, causing the target to go into convulsions and making it difficult to even identify the rings on the target. When there is wind, the mirage will look like a river flowing in the scope and the stronger the wind the faster the flow appears until the mirage all but disappears when the wind get much above 9-10 MPH.

When the mirage is running nicely, it is a good indicator that the wind is steady. If the mirage starts to shimmer more, or loses somewhat its river-like appearance, the wind is changing. When the wind drops completely, the mirage will look like it's boiling up, hence the term we use "in a boil." If you do not have to shoot at that time and can hold for a bit, it's preferable to not shoot in a boil. If you have to shoot, aim slightly lower because the mirage is actually making the target appear a little higher than it is.

Judging the appearance of the mirage takes experience but it ain't rocket science. You need to relate the way it looks and how much the bullet will move at that distance. A lot of times you will hear people saying, "mirage is your friend." In reality, mirage can be your friend, albeit a duplicitous one, or it can be a foe or just something that doesn't care about you either way. It's up to you figure out at that time.

To me, mirage is another indication of conditions and I use it more like an early warning of impending condition changes not as my sole or main indicator. I have shot matches where I was using solely the mirage as my guide because on that day, that string, it was reliable, but other times, it was not the indicator to use.

So, why would one think that mirage, when it is present, is not always the primary indicator to use. Well, as the distance grows, you have to figure out which mirage to use. Wait, what? Which mirage? You mean there's more than one? Indeed there is. Remembering that mirage is an optical trick, we need to understand that you will see the mirage best at the distance at which your optics are focused. Lot's of people wonder why some shooters go to the line with a riflescope AND a spotting scope. Their riflescope has plenty of magnification to see the scoring on the target at any distance, why the spotting scope? Well, I use it to watch the mirage, but at a different yard line than the target line. Why would I bother with a spotting scope if I was looking at the same thing I can see in my riflescope?

Remembering a discussion we had about optics some weeks back, let me reintroduce the concept of "depth of field." When you focus a lens you will have noticed that as the further away the subject is the less critical the focus is. That is because the distance that is in focus (the field) grows the further away the object is. The depth of the focused field grows quickly with distance and also as the aperture of you lens diminishes. The bigger lenses in a spotting scope make for a larger aperture and so you tend to play more with the focus on a spotting scope as compared to most riflescopes.

Remembering the discussion earlier about wind and gradients and so on, I like to keep my spotting scope with its 82mm lens focused on the 600 yard line and catch the mirage at that distance. My riflescope will be focused on the 1000 yard line and I will see the mirage at that distance. On days when the mirage at these yard lines are going in the same direction, things are easier, but when they do different things at each yard line you are going to have to decide which is more important to you.

You can also try to relate the mirage pictures that you see at the yard lines with the flag action or other indicators at these distances. Some people eschew a spotting scope and play with the focus on their riflescopes to go back and forth. I would caution against that as you will get lost quick enough and also the side focus of a riflescope has to be handled differently than an adjustable objective and is much more prone to issues than a spotting scope focus. Set your riflescope focus once and leave it there for the match.

Next up some more mirage discussion.

Reading wind at the T3 Ranch steel matches (Snipers Hide Cup location) is likely little different than at most structured ranges.

The major terrain feature is a north-south running drainage that's fairly flat bottomed and up to a few hundred yards wide. We shoot from the east rim, which is probably 50-125 feet above the drainage floor. Targets of 300-450 yards tend to be set on the drainage floor, with targets of 500-800 yards on progressively higher points on the opposite wall of the main drainage. The station with the long targets (1150-1350 yards) crosses a smaller, secondary drainage that's not quite parallel with the main drainage, with the targets are just below the west rim. There are small feeder drainages from the rims that generally run east-west. These are more prominent on the east rim, and they often separate one shooting station (we currently have 10 stations) from the next.

The ground is relatively dry and rocky, with limited low vegetation -- grass, cactus, yucca. There are a few cottonwood trees in the central portion of the gully, so for a few months we can judge wind in the middle of the main drainage by the movement of their leaves. Wind meters give us a starting point, but the subsidiary drainages at our shooting locations often produce readings that are "just a bit" different than what's happening in the main drainage. Dust patterns from misses on the opposite side of the main drainage are sometimes one of the better wind indicators we have. Mirage is hard to read and it's generally too dry for the shooter to see his own bullet trace.

We often call the first shooter in the squad the "wind bitch". But if the wind isn't constant, rotating towards the back of the squad sometimes offers no advantages.

Offgrid warned me that T3 Ranch shooters tend to use a bit different wind language. The term "full value" means the successful shooter was holding off for an effective 10 mph wind at either 3 or 9 o'clock. And "half value" means effective 5 mph cross wind from 3 or 9. Since we all have dope cards for our various calibers/bullets/MVs, this really makes sense. Especially since I'm MOA and most of the quys I tend to shoot with are mil.

In Colorado the normal winds should be from the west (straight into our faces while shooting), but in the 5 or 6 T3 matches I've attended, it seems we've had more south-ish (from our left) and north-ish (from our right) winds than westerly headwinds. We currently shoot 61 rounds, with a maximum potential score of 66. Scores in the 40's are generally the winners, although on tough days 30's will win.

In our last match I actually experienced a down wind on the 1,353 yard target. My first shot missed a the IPSC-sized steel low and right by about 2 feet. For my quick follow up shot, I held high and a bit further left and hit the target squarely. This bugged me for the next couple of stations, as I thought my dope had gone bad -- my elevation was right on for the prior 4 targets of 1,149 to 1,247 yards. And I broke both shots at 1,353 perfectly -- absolutely no movement of the reticle during and following the shot.

When the match was over, our squad had the time to practice back on that long distance stage. My elevation dope was still dead on for all 5 targets, including the 1,353 yarder. I even hit it with both my first and second practice rounds -- woo-hoo! Rifle instructors stated I would eventually deal with up/down drafts in long distance shooting, but this was my first (known) experience. Mongo no like up/down drafts.

I'm still more than a bit clueless with the wind.

Must... Have.. Huber..

Damn you, jlemmy! Lol

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Must... Have.. Huber..

Damn you, jlemmy! Lol

I have a buddy at work that tells me I cost him more money than his kids Happy to help !

offgrid -- I've seen similar wind charts, but honestly I question how much wind direction really affects elevation. I've seen minimal (if any) change in elevation with switching wind direction. This includes shooting at Rifles Only (Texas, out to 1,000 yards), T3 Ranch training under Frank Galli (out to 1150 yards), and our own property (out to 800 yards).

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that other factors are likely greater.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Must... Have.. Huber..

Damn you, jlemmy! Lol

Yea no kidding. Just dont know for me if its cost effective on a factory rifle, or what weight I would even order it at.

I figure the the cost of misc. odds and ends I discovered this weekend is already pushing a grand.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
offgrid -- I've seen similar wind charts, but honestly I question how much wind direction really affects elevation. I've seen minimal (if any) change in elevation with switching wind direction. This includes shooting at Rifles Only (Texas, out to 1,000 yards), T3 Ranch training under Frank Galli (out to 1150 yards), and our own property (out to 800 yards).

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that other factors are likely greater.

fritz, I have shot several times with my buddies south of windy Gillette. A few times in 20-35 mph winds coming from 11:00-1:00. First time I shot in those winds was with my trusty 284. Push the bullet down enough to miss a FZ IPSC steel plate at 1200-1350yds when dialing elevation for a 3:00 or 9:00 wind. It was quite the eye opening experience that first time when the wind was coming straight from 12:00, holding on the plate seeing how much my impact changed up/down. Holding on a plate in that strong of wind was something new as well. Fun stuff shooting in Wyoming!

Most of the time in Colorado I'm not shooting in strong enough head/tail winds and the distances for it to matter. But, it's certainly something I file in case I do so I understand what's going on and not questioning my dope/load.....

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Must... Have.. Huber..

Damn you, jlemmy! Lol

Yea no kidding. Just dont know for me if its cost effective on a factory rifle, or what weight I would even order it at.

I figure the the cost of misc. odds and ends I discovered this weekend is already pushing a grand.

That doesn't surprise me. I'm at $500 for just 2 things. Unfortunately, one of them seems to be pretty much made from unicorn hide or some such, but I'll find it...