quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

Every day, every shooting range is different. I have much to learn with wind calls.

I've been at this for about 5yrs, easily 15K rounds through my center fire bolt rifles/22lr trainer, shooting steel matches, practicing.......shooting in different places/terrain.... Most days I can see the wind, some days I'm left scratching my head. 6-8 hour field matches like Raton and T3, there will be wind shifts, weather fronts move in/out... Because of the shooting positions, in trees/on a ridge shooting down into a valley/across a valley...., a wind meter is almost worthless. Constantly need to be looking for signs, mirage, dust, terrain effect.... Sometimes luck plays into it, what stage I'm on/direction I'm shooting when a shift occurs.

For me the toughest wind to shoot in is a "fish tailing" wind, for example coming from 12 o-clock, swithcing from 10-2. Mirage shifting L-R, then stops (boils)..... OK, mirage stopped, hold center, wrong/miss! I much prefer shooting while the mirage is moving, shooting under a clock usually that doesn't happen, got to shoot now.

I have just slightly over a 2 mph window to hit a 18" wide target at 1150yds with my "wind cheater" 6x47/105 Hybrids/3000. fritz, what's your wind window for that target/distance?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

Big Dog Steel also makes a T-post bracket. BD doesn't not have the adjustability of JC, but it does allow the plate to swing a little. BD's design gives the plate a bit more resonance and some visual cues from plate swing.

Big Dog steel T-Post bracket.

Have had it for about 3yrs or so, it's held up well. Countless hits with various rifles/pistols. Usually set "Little Man" at 548 yards. He's been thumped many times by a friends 338 Edge/Berger 300 Hybrids/4000lbs of energy. Little Man has made a few appearances at the Colorado Sig shoot, he's taken a beating! Little mans head is a fun target to hit at 548yds, attempt to hit that is!

If shooting rifles only, the JC T-Post bracket is good. If want to shoot pistols at it also, prefer the angled back/down BD.

I really need to go to Harbor Freight and buy a cheap welder. WHY I never got one is beyond me....

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
I have just slightly over a 2 mph window to hit a 18" wide target at 1150yds with my "wind cheater" 6x47/105 Hybrids/3000. fritz, what's your wind window for that target/distance?

If I understand your calculations correctly, my 168 AMax/Zmax/TAP has a 1.23 mph wind window. Not much room for error.

My 140 AMax in 6.5 Creedmoor (2776 mv) is virtually the same as your 6mm Hybrids at that distance -- 2% less wind window per JBM. Your Hybrids have a distinct advantage in elevation at 1050 yards -- 4 MOA less required per JBM.

offgrid,

I spent the last three days at T3 ranch in their advanced precision rifle course. This morning we shot stations 6 through 10 of rifle course -- Paul said it was virtualy unchanged from the last competition. I pulled my head out of my backside for a few stations and scored 21/30, winning the mini-me match for our class. That is a challenging course, at least the stations we shot.

Frank Galli was our lead instructor. What an awesome shooter. I learned a boat load from him about wind.

After we finished with station 10 (the wood house with 5 positions), three of us did our best to thin the herd of Cynomys rats. Just doing our part to keep carriers of bubonic plague at bay.

Cool fritz!

I've enjoyed talking to Paul over the last fews years at matches and at his shop, he's an excellent LR shooter. He's been at this for long time, he's just as enthusastic about LR as me, great guy.

The T3 Ranch can be very difficut place to shoot regarding wind, no trees, very little veagtation. Taking wind reading from that ridge you walked along is almost worthless. Mirage and dust are your only friends there!

How did you shoot station 9, the tower leg? For me that's the toughest stage there, especially if shooting a bare barrel, no brake, very difficult to see imapacts/misses, targets have a large L-R sweep. Shoot the mover?

Hope to see you at a match there, I'll shoot the Sept match. Also Sept 7th is the last match for the season at Raton, will be there as well.

The difference between a 140 Amax and 105 Hybrids at a match like T3/Raton where the distances are known, no difference other than recoil. I look at the wind drift only, elevation is a number we dial. A match where the distance are not known and have to range every target, off a little with the distances, advantage 6MM.

The plot thickens. On Saturday I bought an APA Gen II Little Bastard brake from one of the other students. He ordered it for one of his AI guns, but it didn't fit. I tried on it my GAPs and it fits. I now have the ability to clear the shooters from the line on either side of me -- even without eating a 3-bean salad the day before. The brake is LOUD, but it really reduces recoil. But you already know that.

Plot twist #2. On Saturday we got to practice shoot the tower late in the day. Paul suggested I try from the low position off the left side. Perfect score -- 0/5 -- didn't ding up the paint on a single gong. So I tried it from the right side, bipod over the angle iron, stack of bags under the stock, standing on my tip toes. I hit two or three targets, can't recall the details. But I realized the .308 with a second focal plane scope (Nightforce 5.5-22x) wasn't going to cut it on that station. Late in the day I really struggled to find the targets, then had issues with wind holds on the SFP reticle.

As we shut down for the day, I slapped the brake on the 6.5 Creedmoor (Nightforce F1 FFP) and got a quick 5 or 6 rounds down range to confirm zero and elevation.

On to the Sunday "mini-me match". With the braked 6.5 Creedmoor, while hoping elevation dope was good.

Station 6, mover, 5/10. I dropped my first two shots because dope wasn't good and I was holding a little high on the plate. Shots 1 and 2 sailed over the top. For the remaining stations I reduced my 7,000' DA dope by 1/2 MOA for mid distance targets (400-600 yards) and 3/4 MOA for those 650-800 yards. Actual DA was over 8,000' due to high temps.

Station 7, diamonds, 4/5. I missed only the mid-distance of 583 yards. Don't recall details, but I think I held too much wind.

Station 8, 3/5. Hit 464 yards to the right of the house, missed 515 yards above the house (held too much wind), hit 593 yards above the house. Shooting from the inside of the culvert sucked with a brake. Hit the 287 yarder, but missed the 331 yard target. I was out of time for the fifth shot, so it wouldn't have counted anyway.

Station 9, from concrete support for power line tower, 5/5. Yee haw! Wind picked up to 12 mph at the shooting station (coming from 2 o'clock or so), but it switched directions across the valley. In the middle of the valley and on the far side of the hill there was virtually no cross wind -- it appeared to be coming straight at us, and at a lower velocity. So I held right edge of plates on everything and hit center to left edge. I was uber lucky with my wind call, and I was the first person up to shoot. FWIW I shot from the right side of the concrete, bipod up high, stock barely clearing the angle irons of the tower. I pinched fingers three times running the bolt and adjusting parallax. This station is evil.

Station 10, little wood house, 4/5. I hit all three from the lower level (479, 630, 801). I hit the 693 yarder from the sloped roof-top shot. I missed the 543 yarder from the funky height slot, trying to use my pack as a rear support. But it made no difference, because I was out of time.

Congrats on getting a brake. The LB is about good as they get. The delicate flowers poo-poo brakes. I'm going to these matches with the mind set of winning, I'll do what ever it take to help me win. If someone doesn't like it, too bad, shoot some where else! I much prefer the fast recoil pulse of a brake vs a slow pulse of a supressor. It's interesting to see several guys around me who started with supressors and now have gone to brakes. Wouldn't want 9" more inches hanging off the end of my barrel going in/out of those port holes on the shoot house stage. I'll never buy a supressor for my center fire bolt rifles.

Stage #9, shot both ways, rifle on the left under small bag and straddling above the angle iron. Over the angle iron I feel is more solid, can lean my body into the pier. It is evil, those targets aren't easy to locate in a timely manner in that akward position. Suggest not just holding an edge as you go up in yardage on a stage, that can bite you if the wind increase a couple mph as you shoot. Make small corrections in your hold as you go as needed.

Did you dial or hold wind on the mover?

I shot for a year with a SFP NF 5-22. It definetly hurt me, slowed me down. Dial down to find targets, dial back up to shoot.....occasionally forgetting to dial back up, wrong wind hold, oops! If you don't have a scope lever/cat tail, get one, it will speed things up. I'm using this one, http://www.3gunstuff.com/ he's a good guy, local match shooter trying to scratch out a living selling this stuff.

The only real downside I saw with the brake was shooting from inside the culvert. That wasn't fun. Fortunately it was only two shots.

I gambled with with edge holds on station #9 due to the way the wind was changing directions on the target side of the hill -- it appeared to me that its direction was changing enough to need less wind holds. I know I got lucky, and I do normally expect wind holds to increase with distance.

I held wind on the mover. Had it down pretty well with the .308, but the 6.5CM plus a different day equals different holds (imagine that!). I ambushed the target -- about 7.5 Museums of Art lead for left-to-right and about 6.0 lead for right-to-left. (That would be around 2.2 and 1.7 Miley Cyrus' for you.)

The second focal plane NF scope is living on borrowed time. It's a great scope -- clear glass, tracks correctly, never loses zero, has worked reliably with multiple cartridges at huge differences in DA. But in the games I choose to play, I feel a first focal plane scope is in the works. I was originally considering another NF F1, as this means my .308 and 6.5 CM would now be exactly the same equipment.

But....I got to play with Frank Galli's NF Beast scope, and placed it side be side with a S&B PMII. Mongo like the Beast. Decisions, decisions.

I like the looks of that scope lever.

So how do you deal with the course layout card / dope card during a match? Do you write you expected elevations on the course layout card in advance? Do you keep the course layout card on a clipboard / pocket / arm band?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

But....I got to play with Frank Galli's NF Beast scope, and placed it side be side with a S&B PMII. Mongo like the Beast. Decisions, decisions.

So how do you deal with the course layout card / dope card during a match? Do you write you expected elevations on the course layout card in advance? Do you keep the course layout card on a clipboard / pocket / arm band?

Haven't handled/look through a Beast yet, don't know anyone with one. The Raton match is a good place to check out scopes, most guys are more than willing to let you take peak through their scopes on Saturday afternoon practice.

For T3 and Raton, known distances, made up these cards. Have a few batches based on temp. I simply look at the noon temp forecast for the match day go with that for the entire match. For stages 9 & 10 at T3 clip the cards to a arm band, other than those stages cards on the ground.



Previous to using the stage cards, made a up single two sided cards paracorded to my scope with the exact yardages of all the stages. Both matches a RO (we self RO) will bark out the distances to you. I found I would rather rely on myself, sometimes I didn't hear the yardage right, sometimes I don't shoot the targets near to far, RO gets confused.....

One of the guys I shoot with uses this arm band. For every stage he puts a piece of tan painters tape on it, writes down the yardages, gets dope from his Applied Ballistics Kestrel, write that down. Shoot, tear off the tape, repeat..... I like the physical size of this arm band.

http://www.impactdatabooks.com...-sniperwristband.htm

I have a range card from the T3 July match if you need one, I believe they're keeping the stages the same for the rest of the year. Raton distances are on their website.

10 and 15 MPH wind holds works well for me, half/half, double/double, add.....

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
For T3 and Raton, known distances, made up these cards. Have a few batches based on temp. I simply look at the noon temp forecast for the match day go with that for the entire match. For stages 9 & 10 at T3 clip the cards to a arm band, other than those stages cards on the ground.

One of the guys I shoot with uses this arm band. For every stage he puts a piece of tan painters tape on it, writes down the yardages, gets dope from his Applied Ballistics Kestrel, write that down. Shoot, tear off the tape, repeat..... I like the physical size of this arm band.

It's interesting your mentioning the arm band -- Frank Galli suggested one. He stated that those designed for football players (found at many sporting goods stores) would be an option.

Paul gave us a photocopy of the T3 range card the day before the match. I put yellow sticky notes with dope just below the diagram for each stage. I carried the range card in my rifle dope book, which is getting a bit big to carry around for a match. What are your thoughts about the plastic D.O.P.E. board from the 3gunstuff guy?

I picked up a Magnetospeed V3 chronograph this week. My old Chrony crapped out and I saw how well the V3 worked at the T3 training on multiple guns from prone.

Yesterday I chrono'd my .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor ammo inventories. Muzzle velocities were up a touch from my Chrono's figures, but I suspect that's due to both the temps and the effect of muzzle reading versus 10 feet away. Some observations:

- Good ol' I-can't-believe-you-use-that-crap Federal GMM 175 produced 2670 MV with standard deviation of 6.6 -- the lowest SD of the day. Crappy results, too, with a five round group at 400 yards, a bit less than 2", dead center of the plate.

- Another .308 favorite of mine, Corbon's 155 Scenar produced 2966 MV with an SD of 8.7. Similar to FGMM 175, a sub-two inch group on the plate's orange aiming dot, again at 400 yards.

On to the 6.5 Creedmoor. In response to the webz rumor that rifles have cold bore flyers, the following group of five at 400 yards were the first rounds through the tube in a week. The group was covered by the small end of the white spray can top, which measures 1-7/8". So call it a 1-3/4" group at most. I held right center of plate for all shots, which means I underestimated the fish-tailing head winds a bit. I finally remembered to bring my cell phone to the target berm for a refrigerator trophy.
- Lesson learned. Don't leave a Kestrel wind meter out in the sun while you walk 800 yards to the target and back. The heat absorbed changes Density Altitude just a bit and throws off elevation readings.



Yesterday was a challenging wind day. Most of the morning involved variable fishtailing head winds from 11 to 1 o'clock. As afternoon storms rolled through and delivered glancing blows on the property, winds switched all the way from 8 o'clock to 12 to 5.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I picked up a Magnetospeed V3 chronograph this week. My old Chrony crapped out and I saw how well the V3 worked at the T3 training on multiple guns from prone.

Yesterday I chrono'd my .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor ammo inventories. Muzzle velocities were up a touch from my Chrono's figures, but I suspect that's due to both the temps and the effect of muzzle reading versus 10 feet away. Some observations:

- Good ol' I-can't-believe-you-use-that-crap Federal GMM 175 produced 2670 MV with standard deviation of 6.6 -- the lowest SD of the day. Crappy results, too, with a five round group at 400 yards, a bit less than 2", dead center of the plate.

- Another .308 favorite of mine, Corbon's 155 Scenar produced 2966 MV with an SD of 8.7. Similar to FGMM 175, a sub-two inch group on the plate's orange aiming dot, again at 400 yards.

On to the 6.5 Creedmoor. In response to the webz rumor that rifles have cold bore flyers, the following group of five at 400 yards were the first rounds through the tube in a week. The group was covered by the small end of the white spray can top, which measures 1-7/8". So call it a 1-3/4" group at most. I held right center of plate for all shots, which means I underestimated the fish-tailing head winds a bit. I finally remembered to bring my cell phone to the target berm for a refrigerator trophy.
- Lesson learned. Don't leave a Kestrel wind meter out in the sun while you walk 800 yards to the target and back. The heat absorbed changes Density Altitude just a bit and throws off elevation readings.

As I've said many times before, if you're stuck shooting factory ammo, FGMM is the way to go. Those numbers aren't bad, for factory ammo.

The other big problem with the FGMM is that is uses the 175SMK, which is a piss-poor bullet for 1000 yard comp, but quite satisfactory for up to about 800 yards. F-class competitors stay away from Sierras because of the wide variations in the bullet ogives as well as the lousy, inconsistent and ragged meplat.

Just imagine what you could do if you were shooting some of my match .308 cartridges. (I know, I shouldn't tease.)

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:


- Lesson learned. Don't leave a Kestrel wind meter out in the sun while you walk 800 yards to the target and back. The heat absorbed changes Density Altitude just a bit and throws off elevation readings.

Sorry, but I cant stop giggling.

Just wait til I do the same thing!

How bad did you miss?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
What are your thoughts about the plastic D.O.P.E. board from the 3gunstuff guy?

I've handled one of those boards, well made smart design. Like the bright white back board, writing pops. For me the 6x9 size is a little too big, would prefer a 5x7. Might see if I can have one made in that size.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Sorry, but I cant stop giggling.

Just wait til I do the same thing!

How bad did you miss?

At only 400 yards Density Altitude errors generally aren't that bad. See my photo three posts up. My intended elevation was the bottom edge of the orange paint dot (actually the gray smudge about 3" to the right of the bottom of the orange dot).

Double that distance and DA errors get a bit more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
As I've said many times before, if you're stuck shooting factory ammo, FGMM is the way to go. Those numbers aren't bad, for factory ammo.

The other big problem with the FGMM is that is uses the 175SMK, which is a piss-poor bullet for 1000 yard comp, but quite satisfactory for up to about 800 yards. F-class competitors stay away from Sierras because of the wide variations in the bullet ogives as well as the lousy, inconsistent and ragged meplat.

Just imagine what you could do if you were shooting some of my match .308 cartridges. (I know, I shouldn't tease.)

If I'm beginning to understand this steel/tactical/whatever match thingie, the pure accuracy requirements are lower than the standards required for your F-Class comps. And for the most part, the distances are less, too.

In last weekend's tactical mini-comp, I shot head-to-head against Frank Galli (Sniper's Hide owner) on three stations, with target distances from 287 to 801 yards. Frank scored 13/15, I scored 12/15. Both of us missed two shots from incorrect wind calls, and I missed one from flinching while shooting from inside a 2-foot diameter culvert. Fortunately I have good fillings in my teeth -- that was a head rattler.

I spotted Frank's targets the prior day when he shot a 100-yard group of maybe 1/8". Most of my 100-yard groups that weekend were in the 3/4" to 1" range -- not my finest hour of shooting. FWIW, we were using virtually the same guns and ammo (GAP Gladius & Bitterroot's AMax ammo vs. GAP Crusader & Hornady Amax). I got lucky that I scored that close to Frank. Given more challenging targets and conditions, I likely would have received at heavy schooling.

I do believe that tuning the right ammo to my rifle would result in greater accuracy. However for the game I'm playing, factory ammo seems to be good enough for the given target sizes (1 - 3 MOA, based on my quick reticle measurements). The tricky parts of this game appear to include making correct wind calls based on observing terrain and natural vegetation, understanding rifle ballistics over a variety of distances and density altitudes, and building stable shooting platforms from unconventional shooting positions.

Looks like a fun time fritz. I went this weekend and practiced for a positional match coming up in two weeks. Shot targets at 480, 540, 780, and 1000. Was a good wind day for that particular range holding direction and varying from 1/2 mil to 1.5 mil at 1000. Practiced kneeling slung, leaning over bench, and prone, mostly shooting in the rain. Took my time with positions and saw improvements from it. Went 4/5 for my first mockup stage missing the first shot at 1000 and cleaning the others. Followed it up with a hit. Kept practicing in stages like a match.

Have everything here now for the 6.5 Saum. Won't pull it apart until after this match though.

What a nice way of saying "Piss off, my ammo's fine."


FGMM is excellent factory ammo and while it's difficult enough these days to acquire handloading skills to make ammo comparable to regular factory ammo, matching FGMM is even more so. You need to have top notch equipment and components to produce better ammo. If ever they switched to a better bullet like a Berger or similar, FGMM would be very hard to beat, except for the price.