fritz, if you are unable to see your hits or someone on a spotter giving you instead feedback...., it's difficult at best to make wind corrections.

Hang your steel from a single point, you'll get the feedback you need to help you figure out what the wind is doing.

Here's a video someone shot at Raton, it easy to see which way the target spins from a R or L hit. As well as a less aggressive spin or a straight back swing from a near center/center hit.

If you need any conveyer belt drop me an e-mail, have a bunch of it I got free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX5JwemT46U

Christ I've got a lot to learn! I want to get a scope and bipod for my Light Recce to learn the fundamentals of using a scope, wind, etc. etc. But it is overwhelming. So much to learn!

The start of something new......for me anyway. Due in next week is a Surgeon magnum bolt, 100 pcs of 300 SAUM brass, Krieger barrel, Reamer and go gage, and what I need from K&M for neck turning these. Got the dies from Copper Creek. Modified 7Saum Redding set.

Still need to order some larger die bushings to step down the 300saum brass before expanding up and neck turning. Also need to locate some H1000 and would like to find more brass. Then some Accurate mags. Will be doing this on the KMW Sentinel rifle

Gap has made it a "cool kid" cartridge for the tactical crowd recently by using a shorter freebore and mag feeding, but it's really been around for a long time. Local long range gurus Bill Shehane, Tooley, and gang have been shooting it for years under a different name. Gap barrel life claims aside, it's hard to argue with the ballistics of a 140 hybrid at 3100fps or greater. Bill says realistically accurate barrel life will be in the 1600 range using slow powders like H1000. Even if it were less I'd be happy. Since it's becoming more and more popular I wanted the reamer and wanted to experiment with the cartridge myself for a while so I can intelligently answer any questions about it if someone wants one. Should be a fun one. Probably try out one of those new APA brakes on it.

Question for offgrid: What twists does Chanlynn offer? I have an 8 twist Krieger coming in but think I'm going to use it on a 6.5-284 project instead. Talking with Shehane his best luck with the cartridge has been with 5R Kriegers in 9 twist. I can find a 5R 8.5 twist Krieger in stock and may end up settling on it, but was curious if Chanlynn offered 8.7 or 9.

quote:

Originally posted by MHolland:
Christ I've got a lot to learn! I want to get a scope and bipod for my Light Recce to learn the fundamentals of using a scope, wind, etc. etc. But it is overwhelming. So much to learn!

Go to YouTube and do a search for "TiborasaurusRex".

He has a 70-something video series on everything you EVER wanted to know about long range shooting. I found it very informative when I first started getting into things.

Pay attention to this thread too. There is a unbelievable amount of skill here and you can learn a ton by just reading.

jelrod1,

140 Hybrid at 3100+ is appealing for sure.

Alpha 300WSM mags worked well for me in my SA 7SAUM, had to fuss with the feed lips just a little.

Of the muzzle brakes I've had on my own rifles, the APA Little Bastard is by far the most efficient.

Chanlynn will cut anything you want. His contours are different then everyone else.

MHolland,

Another interesting site.... 8541 Tactical, and their "Mail Call Monday" broadcasts. All sorts of great information from very basic to advanced.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Go to YouTube and do a search for "TiborasaurusRex".

He has a 70-something video series on everything you EVER wanted to know about long range shooting. I found it very informative when I first started getting into things.

You get what you pay for with Tibo-whatever. Personally I think he's long-winded and short in content. A newb will have challenges in determining the good from the chest puffing.

IMO better to pay for a video made by professional instructors. Think Rifles Only or Frank Galli's Sniper's Hide.

Better yet, attend a multi-day course from instructors of similar qualifications.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:


Chanlynn will cut anything you want. His contours are different then everyone else.

Thanks. With some digging I found his number and will give him a call today.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jelrod1,

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
You get what you pay for with Tibo-whatever. Personally I think he's long-winded and short in content. A newb will have challenges in determining the good from the chest puffing.

IMO better to pay for a video made by professional instructors. Think Rifles Only or Frank Galli's Sniper's Hide.

Better yet, attend a multi-day course from instructors of similar qualifications.

I watched a few of his videos a few years back and I think you describe them perfectly.

On the other hand, I just received Bryan Litz's latest tome and I am enjoying the heck out of it; "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting: Volume 1." It's heavy in formulae and technical details, just as I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
You get what you pay for with Tibo-whatever. Personally I think he's long-winded and short in content. A newb will have challenges in determining the good from the chest puffing.

IMO better to pay for a video made by professional instructors. Think Rifles Only or Frank Galli's Sniper's Hide.

Better yet, attend a multi-day course from instructors of similar qualifications.

I watched a few of his videos a few years back and I think you describe them perfectly.

On the other hand, I just received Bryan Litz's latest tome and I am enjoying the heck out of it; "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting: Volume 1." It's heavy in formulae and technical details, just as I like it.

I have read a lot of Litz (though not his latest) and I think he has a great handle on the scientific and engineering aspects of ballistics. He has certainly contributed a great deal to the process of LD shooting.

I think his writing style and content is a bit deep for the average (non-engineer/non-technical) guy and I wish it could be smoothed out a bit to make it more accessible to the average Joe.

He knows his stuff though and his modeling is pretty damn close to reality.

RMD

Well yes. Like everything else in life it requires you to separate the bullshit from the filet.

There is some good explanations and content in there though. I also agree on the Mail Call website.

quote:

Originally posted by jelrod1:

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:


Chanlynn will cut anything you want. His contours are different then everyone else.

Thanks. With some digging I found his number and will give him a call today.

Had a nice talk with Chanlynn and got a barrel ordered. He should be running 6.5's again in Sept. Whether I wait on it for this project or not I'll see. Depends on when everything else gets here.

6.5mm projectiles can't be beat for long range stuff. My Cooper 54 Excalibur in .260 Remington doesn't have a long, heavy barrel, but it's capable of reaching way out there. 1000 yards with a lightweight mountain rifle is within the capability of the rifle.

Norma's 6.5-284 has ballistics that really get my attention. Then again, with my health issues, the Cooper will be my long range gun forever.

Sorry to disagree, but the 6.5 was indeed beaten for the long range stuff. By the 7mm. The F-Open teams all switched to 7mm after the 2009 Worlds. Now some people are playing with the heavy .30 cals in 230 and 250gr. And the .338s have quite the following also. And the 416 and the .408 and ....

quote:

Originally posted by jelrod1:
Had a nice talk with Chanlynn and got a barrel ordered. He should be running 6.5's again in Sept. Whether I wait on it for this project or not I'll see. Depends on when everything else gets here.

Mark Chanlynn is a wealth of knowledge for sure. Been making barrels and gunsmithing for 43yrs, High Master High Power shooter....I'm finally going to use one of his barrels on my next barreled action.

I shoot with a group of guys outside of Gillette Wyoming every couple months when traveling up there for work, they've been shooting 6.5 SAUM's and 6.5 Leopards (necked down WW 270 WSM) way before it was a "cool kid" cartridge. Chatted with one of them last night, they use 8.5 and 9 twist barrels. Running the numbers through JBM's stability calculator, can see how a 8.7 twist would be perfect. They've had good luck with Norma powders, MRP-2 and 217.

fritz made reference between the perceived time it takes to get on steel between two different weight 308 bullets in a recent post. A few months ago shot a steel match with a guy who was shooting a 6.5SAUM/140 Hybrids @ 3180, I thought my 6x47/105 Hybrids @ 3000 got on target in a hurry....

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Sorry to disagree, but the 6.5 was indeed beaten for the long range stuff. By the 7mm. The F-Open teams all switched to 7mm after the 2009 Worlds. Now some people are playing with the heavy .30 cals in 230 and 250gr. And the .338s have quite the following also. And the 416 and the .408 and ....

6.5mm is pretty great, especially for lighter rifles considering the recoil resulting from pushing 7mm and .30 cal bullets hard, but some of those 7mm and .30 cal bullets have just stupid high BCs.

Given my current long range rifle weighs in at a hair under 9 pounds, I am glad I went with 6.5mm (in the guise of 6.5 Creedmoor) but I have to admit that I'm lusting after a big, heavy 7mm or .30 LR rifle. There's no real reason for it because I don't ever shoot at extreme long range, but damn I want one.

Berger makes the highest BC 6.5mm bullet I am familiar with, their 140gr match hybrid. It has a G1 BC of .618 and a G7 BC of .317. The Berger 7mm 180gr match hybrid has a G1 BC of .674 and a G7 of .345. The Berger .30 cal 230gr match hybrid has a G1 BC of .743 and a G7 of .380.

I haven't run the numbers for those specific bullets but my experience has been that a heavier, higher BC bullet run a little slower may experience more drop, but will be less affected by wind. That's usually a good tradeoff because windage is less consistent and harder to compensate for.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
On the other hand, I just received Bryan Litz's latest tome and I am enjoying the heck out of it; "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting: Volume 1." It's heavy in formulae and technical details, just as I like it.

Thanks for mentioning this book. I have bought both editions of "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting" (I karmaed off the first edition here when I got the second) and I think I have a copy of "Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting" somewhere, but I wasn't aware of this new book. I just ordered a copy. I'm an engineer and I like formulae and technical details, too.

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
but I have to admit that I'm lusting after a big, heavy 7mm or .30 LR rifle. There's no real reason for it because I don't ever shoot at extreme long range, but damn I want one.

I've chambered two 7's, a 284 and a 7SAUM. 180 Hybrids weren't available when I had the 284, shot the 175SMK's @ 2850, chamber was throated for the SMK's. 180 Hybrids in the 7SAUM. If I were to chamber another 7 it would be an easy choice going with a 284. The 284 was easier to tune, easier on brass, about 1000rds more barrel life.....

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
6.5mm is pretty great, especially for lighter rifles considering the recoil resulting from pushing 7mm and .30 cal bullets hard, but some of those 7mm and .30 cal bullets have just stupid high BCs.

Given my current long range rifle weighs in at a hair under 9 pounds, I am glad I went with 6.5mm (in the guise of 6.5 Creedmoor) but I have to admit that I'm lusting after a big, heavy 7mm or .30 LR rifle. There's no real reason for it because I don't ever shoot at extreme long range, but damn I want one.

Berger makes the highest BC 6.5mm bullet I am familiar with, their 140gr match hybrid. It has a G1 BC of .618 and a G7 BC of .317. The Berger 7mm 180gr match hybrid has a G1 BC of .674 and a G7 of .345. The Berger .30 cal 230gr match hybrid has a G1 BC of .743 and a G7 of .380.

I haven't run the numbers for those specific bullets but my experience has been that a heavier, higher BC bullet run a little slower may experience more drop, but will be less affected by wind. That's usually a good tradeoff because windage is less consistent and harder to compensate for.

I didn't say the 6.5 isn't good for long range, I just said there are better especially if you goal is to have something man-portable and not crew-served to get to 1000+ yards.

Berger does indeed make extremely nice bullets but if I were shooting 6.5 or 7mm at 1000 yards, I would probably go with the JLKs. They had a 140gr 6.5 with a G1 BC of 630 and a 180gr 7mm with a G1 BC of 735. It's a far cry from the 575 G1, 290 G7 of my 180gr .308 JLK LBT. It's what we call Boutique Bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I didn't say the 6.5 isn't good for long range, I just said there are better especially if you goal is to have something man-portable and not crew-served to get to 1000+ yards.

I was trying to express complete agreement with you.

For that particular rifle, I am happy it's a 6.5mm, but there's no doubt that you can make a better performing long-range rifle in 7mm or .30 cal.

My preference for 6.5mm on that rifle has to do with how pleasant it is to shoot out of a 9 pound rifle - I don't think putting 100 rounds downrange through a 9 pound rifle that could really push the heavy 7mm or .30 cal bullets would be nearly as comfortable.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
Berger does indeed make extremely nice bullets but if I were shooting 6.5 or 7mm at 1000 yards, I would probably go with the JLKs. They had a 140gr 6.5 with a G1 BC of 630 and a 180gr 7mm with a G1 BC of 735. It's a far cry from the 575 G1, 290 G7 of my 180gr .308 JLK LBT. It's what we call Boutique Bullets.

Do the JLK bullets live up to their published BCs? The numbers are certainly impressive.