quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Time to dump that three 'O hate. Check your calendar, its' not 1970 man!

I've named my 308 rifle "Dino", in reference to The Flintstones' pet. So....well before 1970. If Hornady, Federal, Prime, or whomever markets reasonably-priced 6 BR/BRA/Dasher match ammo, then the 308 will go pretty quickly. Until then, I think I'll keep the dinosaur for training purposes. 6.5 Creedmoor is pleasant to shoot after training with a three-oh-hate.

6 Creedmoor components are at Black Canyon Customs right now. He's backed up a bit with work; I'll have the rifle in a couple of weeks. Having the Bartlein BB steel barrels cut to 26". So I'll probably be above the MV speed limit for some matches. I have Hornady and Federal/Berger ammo in the basement for testing. Over time I'll see how the BB steel holds up, and if the 7.5 twist is an issue. I may need a set of rings for the scope, but should have everything else.

Cool! Look forward to see how it shoots

Ahh…… ditch the persimmon wood, 8-track Train with the 6.5, compete with the 6!

I finally got some good groups out of my Savage! I purchased that US Optics 17X scope that BlueDog loaned me. The offer was too good to pass up. Thank you BD!



I went through and re-leveled the scope and torqued the rings. Up until now, I was only getting 3/4"-ish groups out of it and I at least wanted it to shoot under 1/2 MOA.

I loaded up some 168 grain Nosler CC's today and headed out to test some rifles. The rifle was much more consistent today than in previous trips. I got dialed in at 100 and shot two 5-shot groups. The first one was right at 1/2" and the second was 0.412" center to center.

I've always wanted this to shoot ragged one-hole groups and now it is.

Now that I know it's close, I'll tweak the load and take a little more care in case prep.



Tony.

I have a reasonable selection of AR500 steel targets from JC Steel, D-M Targets, and Rogue Shooting. Most are 3/8" thick and from JC Steel. My larger targets are 1/4" thick AR500 -- full size IPSCs and 20" rounds. I originally used the 1/4" thick steel for my longest distances, roughly 700 yards and further.

Last year I started using the 1/4" IPSCs for accuracy testing with 223 rounds, at distances of 300-600 yards. The steel suffered no surface pitting, but I did notice that the targets set at 300-400 yards began to show slight warping after being hammered on repeatedly.

Over the past few months I've used these 1/4" IPSCs at 500-600 yards with my 308. The center of these targets are definitely bowed back now, although the steel surfaces are fine. Basically it comes down to too much impact energy on 1/4" steel. Thus, it's time to move the 1/4" steel further out, and look for some larger plates of 3/8" thick.

I like JC Steel's slotted hook system, which is almost interchangeable with the D-M Target's hook system. The sizes of the hooks and the slots are really close. But neither of them had the size(s) in wanted in stock.

Rogue has a nice & simple T-post hanger -- it goes over the top of a post, with a round J-hook holder. Not the most robust setup, but lightweight, cheap, and effective. Rogue hanger works for just about any plate with a hole. I use this system frequently for 8", 10", and 12" plates.

Rogue also has a little stronger T-post hanger that mates with the square 3rd hole in many of their targets. I felt this option might be better for heavier plates. I ordered two 16" squares in 3/8" and two square-peg hangers. My initial thoughts:
- Rogue's square hanger and plate holes are not compatible with those from JC Steel and D-M Targets. This is unfortunate.
- Rogue's hangers fit quite tightly on my T-posts. In other words, virtually no room to spare for bent tops. I had to do a little hammer and wrench work on some t-posts to make them work -- as the posts were showing the wear of repeated replacement. Damn cattle, knocking over the posts.
- Rogue's square hole hanger has a pretty small hook, which keeps the plate on the hanger during high-energy impacts. I think a larger hook would be more secure. A 500+ yard hit on a 16" plate with a 308 doesn't rock the plate all that much. Things might be different with smaller plates and closer distances.
- But all-in-all, so far so good. Rogue's hangers allow the plates to vibrate well, so the acoustic feedback of hits is good. Meaning it's loud, and there are different tones for hits in different parts of the plates.

The new 16" Rogue is on the left. The older IPSC with JC hook is on the right.



Targets were at 585 yards, Corbon 155 Scenar. 3-10 mph wind from 10-12 o'clock. 3-1/4" vertical on the right, 4-1/4" vertical on the left. I find it interesting that there was noticeably more bullet splash from the 3/8" steel onto the 1/4" plate, than there was from the 1/4" plate onto the 3/8" steel.

I had a little more time with the 308 and Rogue's t-post system.
- The Rogue system works well, at least at the distances of 400-600 yards. Down the road I'll try smaller plates and closer distances. I think JC Steel and D-M Targets ring on impact is a little louder.
- I used a grinding wheel to smooth some bent edges on the top of a t-post, in order to make the Rogue hanger slide on and off a little better. The t-post hanger really doesn't like bent flanges on the top of t-posts.

- The 308 barrel is now at 6,000 rounds. Getting a little long in the tooth. I'm seeing a few vertical flyers -- maybe one in 5 to 10 rounds. The best 4 of 5 rounds at 400-600 rounds is often only 1/2 MOA vertical. Sometime less. The lone flyer often takes the vertical dispersion to 1 MOA or so. In strong crosswinds the vertical can approach 1.25 MOA.
- Federal GMM 175 and Hornady 168 Amax loads currently are the most consistent. Hornady 168 ELD-M holds promise with a new barrel. If I had to choose now, Hornady 168 Black Amax might be the best price for the performance.
- I won't retire this barrel yet. I think there's some life left for training from barriers, where I don't need one-hole groups.

6,000 rounds is a good life for a match barrel. How’s the rifling in the center of the bore? Anything a rechamber and re crown can fix?

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
6,000 rounds is a good life for a match barrel. How’s the rifling in the center of the bore? Anything a rechamber and re crown can fix?

Dino's Bartlein barrel has held up well over the years, especially given that I haven't babied it. On Sunday I had a good wind window, while comparing the various Hornady loads. The temp was a bit above 90, sun was out full. Maybe 30 rounds into just cranking rounds down range, I started getting a sticky bolt and popped 2 primers in Hornady Black 168. OK, give it a rest. Put the rifle in the shade, repaint the targets, dig a few weeds. POI at 585 yards rose by maybe 1" to 1.5" on the rounds that blew the primers.

I don't have a borescope. The crown looks pretty good. I suspect the throat looks like crap. When I retired my first 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, my 'smith looked at the throat -- alligator skin and a 1-inch jump to the lands. This 308 barrel is probably in similar condition. When I decide to pull the barrel, it will become a tomato stake. No desire for rechambering.

I have a new Bartlein 308 barrel in the basement. It will be installed shortly after the current one is declared toast. The new barrel is 3 inches longer, and I'll take the improved ballistics of maybe 60-70 fps faster muzzle velocity.

Tough times for sure finding powder! In the last month seen various Vihtavouri powders available. Loaded VV N160 in a 6.5x47 years ago, did well. Haven't used VV powders since with their higher pricing compared to Hogdon. Today is a new day and the VV powders are about the same price. Came across some 8 pounders of N140, snagged it. Did a quick test in the 6BRA today. Based the charges on a friends N140 load in his 6BR and a few 6BRA post on Accuratteshooter, basically same charge range as Varget. Loaded 6rds each 31.3 and 31.6. Shot 3 as a group, chrono'd 3. This quick test shows me it'll work. Interesting the POI shift compared to H4895 load. H4895 load is 2920fps. Won't load with the N140 again until I get two new barrels spun up by jelrod1 this fall. Glad I have the stuff!

Can't find your favorite Hogdon powder.... look at VV.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Interesting the POI shift compared to H4895 load. H4895 load is 2920fps.

Have you seen POI shifts before when switching powders? Although I don't think you change powders very often.

Nice ES -- that will work.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Interesting the POI shift compared to H4895 load. H4895 load is 2920fps.

Have you seen POI shifts before when switching powders? Although I don't think you change powders very often.

Nice ES -- that will work.

The 6BR and the first few Dasher barrels I tried Varget and H4895. Don't recall if there was a POI shift between the two powders. Couldn't shoot the difference between the two powders at 100yds, H4895 shot better at distance. Been using H4895 since on several barrels.

Shooting LR this Thurs, will shoot 10rds of the N140 load on paper at 800-1000. Can't resist! Hopefully it'll do OK! Will shoot H4895 load on paper as well to compare. Barrel has 2800rds on it, getting a bit long in the tooth!


6CM chambered?

It will interesting to see how the powders perform at distance.

I don't have the 6CM back yet, but should be soon. Not in too much of a hurry, as I still need rings to mount the scope. Unfortunately, the ring model I want is in short supply right now.

On a good note, the 2 Wilson Combat TTU AR-15 triggers that I've had on backorder for quite awhile just arrived. When I get the 6CM back from my 'smith, I'll also get the 2 lowers that he's assembling. This will balance the number of uppers and lowers.

Model rings?

We all know that finding ammo/components has been a challenge for some time. For my 223 rifles, I generally shoot FGMM 69 for training and Hornady Black 75 HPBT for competition. I've tested a bunch of 69 SMK loads, in the event that long-term availability of reasonably-priced FGMM 69 went south. I just finished the accuracy evaluation of Winchester 69 SMK ammo. I bought a decent supply of the Win 69 when prices were reasonable and little else was available.

Win 69 SMK shoots quite well in my bolt action 223 training. Really well -- equal if not better than FGMM 69.

Unfortunately Win 69 isn't so stellar in any of my AR15s that are used for training and general practice. I found that accuracy for all ARs was good out to about 300 yards. Further out, almost every 5-round group suffered from a noticeable vertical flyer. Many of the flyers were high, but a few impacted low. I didn't track muzzle velocity for every rifle, but for the groups with MV tracking, the flyers could not be explained by differences in velocity.

In the 200-300 yard ballpark, I obtained a a few sub-MOA groups for every AR. Sometimes around 1/2 MOA. Then moving out to 400-ish yards, I saw verticals open up to 1.5 MOA, sometimes even 2 MOA. Ugh. Wind speed or direction didn't really seem to be an issue.

Fortunately, Win 69 SMK shoots well enough in my beater LWRC 14" piston upper, but only to 300-ish yards. So...the Win 69 ammo will primarily feed this ammo-finicky upper, for positional training from barriers. Not my plan A, but rather a plan B that should work out just fine.

Shooting 22's with a fellow SF member next week. Whipped up a couple portable 22 target stands with some 1/2 rebar had laying around. About simple as it gets. Strap is very snug on the rebar. Rumor has it he's a pretty good shot, hope they hold up!

Your stand resembles the ones from the Raton rimfire match. Did you also weld a crossbar near the bottom to keep the stand from rotating left or right?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Your stand resembles the ones from the Raton rimfire match. Did you also weld a crossbar near the bottom to keep the stand from rotating left or right?

Did not weld a cross bar or fins at the bottom. Shot 22's at similar designed shepherd hook type stands without that did not rotate. Should be OK, we'll see!

Over the years occasionally a fellow member will ask what caliber should I chamber. I commonly suggested a 6BR. Here is why the 6BR.

A couple months ago picked up some VV N140. Shot a couple N140 loads through one of my high round count 6BRA barrels to see what's what with the unfamiiar to me powder. N140 mirrored a Varget charge spot on. Been said load up any 105 class match bullet with 30 grains of Varget for a 6BR, doesnt shoot a 1/4", gotta dud barrel. Loaded 30/N140/105Hvld/450. Not a dud barrel! Chrono'd 2880 5 shots, ES of 6. Shot lots of 105vld's, I know they shoot with a 10 thou jam. Silly easy!! Barrel is a jelrod1 chambered 26" Bartlien 8 twist. If the weather holds up later this week, will shoot it on paper or Shotmarker at distance. Guessing it'll be OK

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Here is why the 6BR.....

Yep, that dog'll hunt.

*****
Maybe one of these days there will he high-quality, reasonably-priced factory 6BR ammo. But for now, I've settled with 6 Creedmoor. Components are:
- Defiance action
- Bartlein BB steel barrel
- Grayboe stock & bottom metal, Mlok and Henderson Precision ARCA rail
- Triggertech trigger



6CM is hard on barrel throats, so I went with Bartlein's BB steel. In theory, I could get 40-50% higher round count before accuracy goes south. BB steel is new enough that few have shot out their barrels. My 'smith has reamed a few BB barrels, but nobody has many rounds on them. He did state that the reaming process went a little more slowly than normal, as he felt the steel is harder.

Break in was quick with this barrel. No indication of copper fouling. I haven't owned a barrel that exhibits such minimal carbon fouling. I think I have around 90 rounds down range so far. All four types of factory rounds shot well. Hornady 108 ELD-M, Hornady 105 Black, Federal GMM 105 Berger, Berger 109 Hybrid.

I've had only two "bad" 5-round groups. A 4.25" vertical at 444 yards with Hornady 108, when I didn't notice the suppressor was loose. A funky group at 529 yards with Berger 109, when the wind was really up and I have incorrect elevation dope for the distance -- I need to reshoot at this distance. The Berger ammo did produce one round that was about 200 fps on my group at 444 yards, and I missed the 12" plate to the left with that round.

I'm generally seeing vertical variations of around 1/2 MOA at distance with Hornady and Federal. Here's the final group from the last day I shot. Federal GMM 105 Berger, 3 inches vertical at 834 yards, 16 inch plate. Fair amount of wind from the left -- IIRC holding 8+ MOA of wind. I now have muzzle velocity readings, so I will be better prepared for elevation & wind next time out.



6 Creedmoor is pleasant to shoot. Quite moderate recoil -- although more than offgrid's 6BR. Definitely less recoil than 6.5CM and 308. It's quite easy to keep the reticle on target all the way through the recoil cycle. Looking forward to more time with 6CM.

Hornady ammo is producing MVs of 3040 to 3050, depending on batch.
Federal MV of about 3040 fps.
Berger MV of about 3000.

fritz, hurry up and shoot out that barrel! Gonna be interesting to see how many rounds you get. Shot out 6x47 barrels at that same 3050'ish velocity. Razor accuarcy low to mid teens. 6CM barrel life is about the same, maybe a touch less. Local shop has a BB steel 1" 223 AR blank. If I knew it could stretch the round count from 4-6K....

Picking up trace with the 6CM?

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
Picking up trace with the 6CM?

Depends on conditions. On days with high winds and really low humidity -- no. Calm winds and a little humidity -- yes.

Some of the times I just really focused on keeping the reticle dead quiet on the point of aim -- to the point of ignoring where trace would show up. And thus trace was more out of peripheral vision, rather than concentrating on it. Trace seems smaller with the 6mm than 6.5mm and 308 bullets. Due to the higher MV of the 6CM, trace is noticeably flatter than my other chamberings.

I didn't know that 223 barrels can be ordered with BB steel. Nice. I have a backup Krieger in my basement for my best AR15, so I'm not in the market right now. Same with the 6.5CM bolt action -- I think I have two Bartlein SS blanks.