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What are your thoughts? Rifle purchase/setup. Login/Join 
Member
Picture of GroundedCLK
posted
The story:

In November of the prior year I slipped on the ice while heading out to my car. I tore my MCL and meniscus which unfortunately aggravated a former injury from a motorcycle accident in 2004. Long story short, I don't move as well as I previously did so IDPA, 3gun, etc are now out. So I was looking for something that I could get in to for shooting... which is what lead me to PRS.

After a bit of research I found a company/guy who offers full rifle packages. The guy posts some great videos, which were super informative and helped provide direction. To make this very long story shorter, I contacted him and everything went awesome. We picked everything out, rifle, scope, mount, cleaning kit, bipod, custom case, etc. He was to mount and zero the scope so it would be ready to run out of the box.

I ordered everything in July.

Scope was backordered, got notification that the rifle was being sent out to me in late November.

So I got a call from the FFL, I show up and there was this rifle, no scope, no mount and the rifle was in a $25 Plano case, not the $700 case that was supposed to be included.

Called the company, they sent the scope separately.

So the owner went on vacation, and his team finished the order. They forgot to bill me for the case, cleaning kit, bipod. Which I take some ownership on they sent me a invoice I didn't read them I just paid them and being that I just sent them nearly $8k so far I didn't give it much thought.

So in the end:

I have the rifle.

I have the scope in a mount, but NOT on the rifle or zeroed.

I do not have the custom case, bipod, cleaning kit, etc, (I paid for them on December 20th.)

My friends and family think I am stupid for keeping this rifle. What are your thoughts?
 
Posts: 1824 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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If you like the rifle and are happy with it, why wouldn't you keep it? If you've paid for the case, cleaning kit, etc...the stuff that is missing...I'd be pushing to get that or at least your money back.

As to mounting and zeroing the scope...why would you want someone else to do that? A scope needs to be set up for your specific cheek weld and eye relief, and zeroed to the shooter. It's not a difficult task, and you should be able to achieve much better results in person than somebody hundreds of miles away just doing a generic setup.
 
Posts: 6598 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
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Well, there is a lot here and even more not here.

First, sorry about you accident. Hopefully you make a full recovery.

Not sure why you are not giving the full story. What rifle, what builder, etc.?

I do not think you are getting your $ back is my guess.

Unless you got absolutely top tier glass I am not sure why you spent $8k, but to each his own.

Typically he would mount the scope and bore sight it. You would do the actual zeroing.

Have you talked to the builder specific to the issues you have with the actual agreement he made with you.

He needs to do better it sounds like but we are only getting a little info from one side.



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 17914 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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I can understand your frustration and even thinking of saying, “Screw it,” and sending everything back because of how you were treated. But that reminds me of the old saying about cutting off one’s nose to spite the face. If you like the scope and rifle and it would be difficult or at least inconvenient to find replacements, why not keep them. The only good rational reason for canceling the entire thing (assuming you could do that with a firearm) would be if you couldn’t dispute the payment for part of the order. Obtaining a custom rifle and some scopes can sometimes take significant time. It would, however, be good to know what company you dealt with to possibly help someone else avoid similar problems (which were inexcusable, IMO).

All that being said, I agree that you should mount the scope yourself, or at least have it done by a local gunsmith so you could be involved in the process.

And all that being said part II, none of my final setups have hit $8K (yet), but as they stand some have come close, and that does not include all the associated expenses that did not end up or remain on the final product, so I can certainly understand that part, and I am not even involved in formal PRS. Wink




7/93
“Cet animal est très méchant, quand on l’attaque il se défend.”
 
Posts: 46419 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of GroundedCLK
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You guys are right I did not give the full story cause I am not sure if you have ever heard the radio show segment, "who is the douche bag?" Well thats what I feel like is going on, I mean I should have looked at the invoices and said something before hand? Would that of stopped the problem I am having right now. My main issue is I feel that I had this good relationship and we were on the same page then he was the parent who forgot me at soccer practice.


Unabridged version.

In 2004 I was riding my motorcycle when I was T-boned by another driver who ran a stop sign. To prevent from failing off the bike I grabbed the throttle which sent me flying as I had no control of the bike. I ended up under the bike across the pavement for just over 250 feet. I broke my collar bone, dislocated my shoulder, broke three ribs, and tore my knee cap. It took me six months to walk again.

Fast forward to last November I slipped on the ice causing me to spin and tore my other knee. Compensating for the damage I use my other knee which caused my knee to become further aggravated. So I need to get a knee replacement at some point. Which means I can no longer shoot IDPA, 3 Gun, or USPSA so precision rifle seems like a natural conversion.

I went to the store and started looking for a precision rifle when I came across the Christian Arms MPR. The reviews of the rifle were mediocre and thats when Daniel Defense announced their Delta 5 PRO https://danieldefense.com/delt...nch-65creedmoor.html which I went to my LGS and they had one I looked at it and fell in love. I started to buy it and I asked what they had for scopes to go with it. The nicest one they had was a Vortex Razor Gen 1 5-20 35mm tube. I asked about rings for it he grabbed a set of rings that were 30mm and I said to him those wouldn't fit to which he started to argue with my cause the package says it would fit up to 52mm. Which I had to explain the difference between objective and diameter of the tube. I pardon myself and left cause I didn't feel comfortable with them doing it.

So I went home and started to do more research when I came across this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC6iZlf-s3E , then I watched the rest of his videos and I really liked them. I reached out to him to thank him for the upfront honest opinion. Thats when I talked to him about a custom rifle package and he ensured me that he could put together a great package. He suggested a rifle the MPA PRM PRO Ii, here is a video of the rifle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_DrLCt8Dg. (BTW My rifle is the white one in the video). He walked me through everything, from the bipod, scope, mount, custom case, to the cleaning kit literally every piece. So we put together a shopping list basically of everything I need to have a finished boresighted ready to zero product.

Originally I ordered a Nightforce NX8 scope, and after thinking about it I said you know what I should get the ATACR 7-35 C571 scope https://www.nightforceusa.com/...TL-TReMoR3-C571.aspx. I dont plan on buying another one anytime soon so buy once, cry once. The scope was backordered till he said maybe January, right now it was July-August. I had no intention of using the rifle anytime soon since I had a lot of other things going on. December 11th comes around and I get notification that the scope was in so I got a invoice. I went ahead and paid the next day I got notification that the rifle was shipped to my FFL. I headed out of work early cause I was excited to get it so I get to the FFL and the kid behind the counter pulls out this tiny Plano case. So immediately I was like you have the wrong case and he was like hold on nope this is yours. He opens it and there is the rifle wrapped in bubble wrap. No scope, no mount, I call Gary immediately and no answer leaving him a message. I sent him two emails while standing there waiting for him to get back to me. About twenty minutes go by no response so I refused to take the rifle. (I didn't fill out a 4473).

About an hour later I get a call, he said he just got off a plane from Africa got my message and called me. I said this should be pretty simple to understand I got the rifle no custom case. Just a case that the rifle barely fit in, no scope, no mount, no bipod. I hear his wife in the background say it was sent to his house. So I am listening to them "argue" over how it was supposed to be sent. He then asked to call me back later to which he did do. He offered to make it right, but needed me to confirm what I paid for versus what I was supposed to get. Which I did, and realized that I didn't pay for the case, bipod, cleaning kit to which I honestly told him. I explained that I never read the invoices just paid for what he sent to me. So I get a email from them with a final invoice stating they adjusted it to cost to apologize for their mistake. I asked about their going to make a custom case if they don't have the rifle or scope he said don't worry about it we will get it cut.

I paid for the case, bipod, cleaning kit on the 20th, I have no doubt that they will send it to me. At this point I feel like I have been ignored and should have bought something else.

Rifle: $2574
Custom cerakote: $235
Scope and mount: $3975
Cleaning kit, case, and bipod: $1130
Total: $7914

https://i.imgur.com/XsbRTCb.jpeg
 
Posts: 1824 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of GroundedCLK
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So to answer the other part, I picked up the rifle from the FFL so I now own it there is no cancelling or returning it. My only real option is posting the rifle for sale and I would keep the scope, bipod etc.
 
Posts: 1824 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
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Unless things have soured with the builder why not keep. Seems like you have or will get everything you ordered and paid for. If so, putting it together is doable and it might be a great setup. And hopefully he will stand behind it. ???



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 17914 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It’s kind of sounding like they did everything but mount and sight it in. I would want to do that myself but that’s not what you’re asking.

The case seems to be your mistake mostly with a little attention to detail needed on his part but I doubt he remembers 6 month old conversations any more than I do.

To call you back on vacation is top notch. Sounds like a decent dude trying to work through some things with you.

Is the quality of the rifle and all to your liking?

Im sure they have similar rifles to cut the custom case with? Tolerances aren’t that tight.





12 years to retirement! Just waiting!
 
Posts: 5305 | Location: Maryland | Registered: August 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Just based on your description and a quick look at the start of the one video, it looks like a nice setup. I researched that scope myself before acquiring one (different reticle) and it has very good reviews, so I’m not surprised it was backordered. On the other hand I absolutely agree that you were treated poorly, and I understand why you might not want to be reminded of the experience every time you look at the rifle. If, though, you can ignore that psychological speedbump and just use the setup as you intended, that would make sense from a practical standpoint. I had never heard of the company you got it from, but no matter how good the rifle is, it’s unlikely you’d get close to your money back from selling it.

At the very least I’d start using the rifle and see how things work for you. In your situation I’d just focus on the gun and what you’re doing with it and let the past be the past (if possible).

What cartridge is it chambered for (I may have missed that)?

My additional thoughts on the service. The company is evidently promoting itself as providing everything the customer needs to start using the rifle as soon as it’s received. If that’s what’s advertised, that’s what should be provided. If one auto parts store advertises that they will install new batteries for free, they shouldn’t tell me after I’ve paid for one, “Our battery guy isn’t here today,” too bad, so sad. I can swap batteries myself, but I don’t like to and I’m willing to pay a bit more for the “free” service.

In this case the very least that should have happened when the advertised products and services couldn’t be delivered as promised, is that the company should have been in immediate contact with the customer to explain what was going on. But even that may not have been satisfactory. I don’t want a vendor even touching something like a high tier scope (that means you, EuroOptic), but that’s because I have the knowledge, skills, and tools to mount my own. If I didn’t, though, getting a scope mounted properly would be a major nuisance for me. (Not everyone lives 15 minutes from the nearest competent gunsmith.)

Anyway, best of luck with everything, and I hope the rifle performs beyond your expectations.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




7/93
“Cet animal est très méchant, quand on l’attaque il se défend.”
 
Posts: 46419 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by GroundedCLK:
I picked up the rifle from the FFL so I now own it there is no cancelling or returning it. My only real option is posting the rifle for sale and I would keep the scope, bipod etc.

It looks like a good rifle. Unless it shoots like crap, I see no reason to sell, as long as it works for you.

****
In the future for your next rifle.... I learned how to mount scopes many years ago, by asking a local 'smith if I could watch him mount a customer's scope. These days we have youtube. Every shooter needs to on their gun to properly sight in a scope. This includes making up/down and fore/aft adjustments to get the right cheek weld and eye box. It's luck if a 'smith in another part of the country gets it right for you.

Sighting in allows you to take the first shots through the barrel, and to clean the chamber & throat after each shot. All this can be done in around 10 rounds (maybe less) with a quality lapped barrel. Few 'smiths will take the time to do this.

I wouldn't pay so much money for the case. I definitely wouldn't pay for a cleaning kit -- I've accumulated a bunch of cleaning items over the years. I use Pelican cases, and they've protected a number of rifles through quite a few airline trips. I cut my own foam for each rifle. It's simple -- use chalk to trace the rifle on the foam, pull out the bread knife. My cutting angles are not as clean as a custom case maker, but the rifle fits better. New foam is readily available from many industrial sources, including furniture makers.

Ixnay the 45 degree forward bipod cant that is shown in your pictures and the video. Shooting like this on level ground means the shooter doesn't understand the basics of loading the bipod. The legs stay at 90 degrees for flat ground. Now I have shot with 45 forward in a number of PRS-type events. Even a couple of times with legs 45 degrees backwards. But this is for steep down angle shots, funky shots off boulders & WTF barriers, and when I want to better lock the bipod legs into some part of a barrier.

I won't buy scopes from dealers at list. Sportoptics sells NF scopes at a 10-12% off list any day, and 11-15% off during holiday sales. All you have to due is call them and ask for their best price. This also works for brands other than Nightforce.
 
Posts: 7505 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
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quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
If you like the rifle and are happy with it, why wouldn't you keep it? If you've paid for the case, cleaning kit, etc...the stuff that is missing...I'd be pushing to get that or at least your money back.

As to mounting and zeroing the scope...why would you want someone else to do that? A scope needs to be set up for your specific cheek weld and eye relief, and zeroed to the shooter. It's not a difficult task, and you should be able to achieve much better results in person than somebody hundreds of miles away just doing a generic setup.



^^^ Agree, don't see what the beef is? Confused



quote:
Originally posted by GroundedCLK:
So to answer the other part, I picked up the rifle from the FFL so I now own it there is no cancelling or returning it. My only real option is posting the rifle for sale and I would keep the scope, bipod etc.



Still not seeing why the need to sell the rifle?

Maybe I need to re-read above comments. Frown
 
Posts: 21251 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of GroundedCLK
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Thank you guys for your comments and opinions, I really do appreciate it.

I am going to keep the rifle and give it a fair attempt. Since Riley's closed (LGS) I do not know of a good gun store around me that mounts scopes, etc. So fingers crossed it will go well.
 
Posts: 1824 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of GroundedCLK
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quote:
Originally posted by GroundedCLK:
So to answer the other part, I picked up the rifle from the FFL so I now own it there is no cancelling or returning it. My only real option is posting the rifle for sale and I would keep the scope, bipod etc.



Still not seeing why the need to sell the rifle?

Maybe I need to re-read above comments. Frown[/QUOTE]

The whole question on keeping the rifle came about, cause I made a big deal about talking about the training sessions that the guy teaches, videos that he posts, and this amazing rifle package that was put together for me by someone who really took the time to listen to what I wanted and made suggestions on every piece of the package. I ordered every piece from him knowing it would cost me a bit more then what I could get it for cause I enjoyed the commitment to ensuring my satisfaction.

Then I didn't get what was promised, forgot what I paid for, it what was promised. That was broken causing me to question his choices, and then my family/friends politely piled on their opinions which were not the most reinsuring.
 
Posts: 1824 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Although it would likely be less expensive to have a gunsmith mount the scope one time, I recommend looking into doing it yourself.
All that’s really necessary is getting some YouTube guidance and a few tools.

The first thing would be to get whatever screwdriver bits fit all the mounting screws. That might be a little tricky to figure out unless they are all hex or Torx drive, but not impossible. If they are “flathead” screws, a set from Brownells should cover whatever they are.

I then strongly recommend an adjustable torque wrench. Hobby gunsmiths did without them for generations, but it provides great convenience and peace of mind to set it, tighten the screws, and be done rather than dealing with advice like, “Tighten it tight enough, but not too tight.”

Having the tools and know-how to do a simple job like that can be very satisfying as well as a practical benefit. The eye relief is too close or too far?* Loosen the ring screws, move the scope, tighten them back down. No putting up with something that’s not right or having to go to the ’smith again (and pay again) to (hopefully) get it right. Need to remove the scope for some reason such as transferring it to a different rifle? Again, quick and easy.

After dealing with incompetent “gunsmiths” for many years in my younger days, I finally decided to start learning how to do the easy jobs myself, and that was one of the best decisions I ever made.

* Added: Yeah, the eye relief of a scope doesn’t change based on where it’s mounted, but where it’s mounted does affect where we must position our head on the stock and based on what the scope’s eye relief is. If we must position our head too far forward to be comfortable, then we’d want to move the scope back some. Or vice-versa. Smile

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




7/93
“Cet animal est très méchant, quand on l’attaque il se défend.”
 
Posts: 46419 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:

After dealing with incompetent “gunsmiths” for many years in my younger days, I finally decided to start learning how to do the easy jobs myself, and that was one of the best decisions I ever made.



This man speaks truth.
 
Posts: 13832 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hop head
Picture of lyman
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feel your pain on the meniscus,

tore mine over a year ago and still cannot extend my leg normally,



meanwhile, a full rifle package, zeroed, is a bit of a fallacy,


only you can zero your rifle


I can shoot it, many other members can shoot it , and adjust the rifle and or scope, but in the end, you are you, and you are the only one that can fit the rifle to you re the zero,


there is no such thing as a turn key PRS rifle,



https://www.chesterfieldarmament.com/

 
Posts: 9842 | Location: Beach VA,not VA Beach | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by lyman:


there is no such thing as a turn key PRS rifle,



And when his barrel speeds up after 100-200 rounds he would likely need to tweak his zero a bit. Or at least include that calculation in his dope.

I have learned, and am still learning, that any kind of long range precision rifle shooting is an ongoing process.

Example:

You take your rifle out with a given lot of information and given weather conditions. You have everything figured out and you are ringing steel out to 1200 yards.


Next time, it's twenty degrees warmer, and/or you just changed to a different lot of ammunition or powder.

Ammunition and external ballistics are now behaving differently and you have to figure out what your dope is now.


Keep a good data book and have a good ballistics solver. I got a Kestrel with the integrated Elite ballistics software from Applied Ballistics. It helps a bunch.



As for the OP's current predicament. Sounds like your gunsmith took a planned vacation and the people who were supposed to handle stuff while he was gone dropped the ball.

I would give him a chance to make it right if he owes you refunded money or a custom hard case. Don't completely write off taking any classes from him. I would base it on how he handles things going forward. If he is polite and responsive now that he is back in country, I would still consider it.


Enjoy the plunge. I started dabbling in PRS last year, enjoyed it a lot, and am training up for a few matches this year. Speaking of which, I need to get my press switched over to load some ammo tomorrow.
 
Posts: 13832 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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