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Member |
I build rifles for fun and work and I say if you buy quality and know how to assemble them, you can build a 2500 rifle without the price. The nice thing is you know whats in it as well. If you do not know how to build them and don't have access to a builder then its not that hard but you can go wrong. Buy a nice barrel and bolt and you are off to a good start. Or just buy a good colt and it will be just fine, maybe a few modifications. | |||
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Member |
But can you and do you, really? To truly use the same parts that many of these manufacturers use, you don't end up saving as much money as you would think. Maybe on a $2500 gun, there's some margin there, but if you go buy parts and try to match BCM, SOLGW, Sionics, FN, DD, etc., you still end up spending fairly decent money. You also don't end up with a manufacturer's warranty, your BCG/barrel are high pressure tested together, etc. You also need the right tools and gauges to really be able to assert any level of QC on your gun(s) beyond "it test fired fine." The cost per rifle for tools goes down as you build more rifles, but the average guy doing one or two is not going to see the cost per gun for tools look reasonable. I'm not saying you can't build a good rifle on your own, that you can't save a little money doing it, and that it won't be a good rifle, I'm just saying it's not as simple as saying you can make "as good as" without knowing what "as good as" is and why. Having granular control over what goes into the rifle is nice, but a lot of times that level of control is an illusion. If you're a large manufacturer, you're likely specifying things like gas port size, specific steel and aluminum, tolerance level of small parts, etc. Even the smallest pin is not "all the same" and the good manufacturers know this. For what it's worth, I armor rifles as part of my day job and build one-off guns to order as a small part of my FFL side business. I support home building guns and I've always enjoyed building guns, but this is ultimately not as simple of a solution as guys try to make it out to be. | |||
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Member |
There is literally no market for guns more competitive than the AR market. So in general you get what you pay for. There are a few "brands" that I personally think are lower quality than their price point but that's just me. In general you get something for the extra $ you spend. But the trick is that what you might be getting might have no meaning to you. With the limited info you have posted its hard to suggest the 'best' fit. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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Member |
This is absolutely accurate. You can really tell by how quickly AR prices returned to sanity after the 2020 circus. Sub-$40 lowers are back. $400 guns are back. Etc. | |||
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Member |
Due to recent events I expect the AR/military looking rifle market is about to get hot. If I were in the market I would make my decision sooner rather than later. IMO: Colt is still Colt and for a basic no frills rifle a great choice. Moving up from there it more depends on your use for the rifle. Most will never see more than a few thousand rounds in one person's ownership. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
^^^Well, it does still have the 'Horsey' on the side... ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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Member |
I was just looking at a S&W for $649 and a Saint for 800 something. I really like the plastic mlok thin furniture on the SA. Whether they are “great” I know not. Mine is predominantly an old 6920. | |||
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Member |
If your need is to shoot some few hundred rounds, maybe a few thousand in several years, at distances of maybe under 200 yards, your practical need for accuracy is that of a fist-sized group, you have no intention of adding suppressors/aiming lasers, and you don't really plan on betting your life on it - there's not a huge practical difference between most AR rifles in terms of meeting that benchmark. Which for a lot of people that own an AR that's all they really need, and there's not much reason for them to spend more than $5-800, and going with a good brand name or specific look is probably going to suit you just fine. If, however, your intended use falls outside of the above "casual plinking/hunting" type role and you want to start getting into suppressors/lasers, or more importantly this is something you're going to bet your life on, you probably want to step up more into the "duty" type rifles. A lot of good mentions in here - FN, SOLGW, POF, Colt (minus the CR line), Sionics, Centurion, BCM, the list goes on. Most of these are baseline $1000 or so for a no-frills carbine, up to $1500-1900 for up-optioned models. Notably FN is kind of backwards, their TAC-15 with wedgelock rail and other added features sell for less than their basic M4. I would strongly advise AGAINST building your first AR for self defense. A complete gun has an added tax on it. Buying a complete lower and complete upper might save you money. Given your comments in the thread my pick would be a complete BCM lower in whatever flavor you prefer, which your local shop might have some of. Add to that a BCM ELW 16" MCMR 13" complete upper receiver. That's their enhanced lightweight (ELW) barrel profile that is similar to a lot of the "modern" contour barrels, but it's a very light profile that doesn't do too bad when it starts to warm up, nothing like some pencil barrels will do. The MCMR handguard is their slim MLOK version, and getting it in 13" shaves off a little weight vs. the 15". The MCMR rail is very slim, tough and stiff, it should serve any need you have. This combination is probably quite a bit lighter than a lot of other similar offerings in this price range, and the BCM quality is no slouch. I've got two friends with this setup using the original obsolete KMR magnesium rails and I still marvel at how little weight they have up front. What are some of the actual differences between low cost guns and the "duty" types? Generally speaking, based on stuff I've seen, not calling out any specific brand or saying everyone conforms to this or not, but we'll say potentially, working back to front; You can get all of that wrong and still have a working gun. It might not work for very long, which begs the question "how do you make it run longer?" but that leads to the next tier, and I don't have the time to delve into the higher cost options. Suffice it to say there's either something custom that catches your eye, or you shoot enough that the cost of bolts and barrels and terms like "Mean Time Between Failure" needs to be factored into your purchasing decison. I think I've rambled enough for today. | |||
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Member |
I have noted some inaccurate remarks regarding Geissele Automatics. They have been making their own barrels in-house since 2018 and sending them out for the chrome lining. Basically, they make everything in house except for springs, grips and stocks. They forge their own lowers and everything is over-engineered: ie: their bolts are made from Carpenter 158+ Steel and have tested to over five times the life of a mil-spec bolt. The triggers, especially the SSA-E X, are head of the class. I have a couple of their rifles and have used a lot of their parts in fifteen of my current rifles. Rustpot gave an excellent rundown. He does not mention the castle nut and endplate, but I always us an FN plate, Aero Precision castle nut, and VLTOR extension, with a lot less torque on the nut. I use the Geissele 42 spring in both rifle and carbine builds and I recommend the VLTOR A-5 system that is listed in the below build sheet. Here is a copy of one of my build sheets and is typical for a carbine (with additional notes): UPPER RECEIVER: Aero Precision M4E1 Barrel: 16" Aero Precision, .223 Wylde chamber, Fluted Stainless Steel Gas System: mid-length Gas Block: Aero Precision (note: I highly recommend the Daniel Defense Clamp low-profile gas block, Geissele and pinned gas blocks) Muzzle Device: Smith Enterprise Vortex A4 Rail: 15” Aero Precision Atlas S-One Bolt Carrier Group: Geissele Reliability Enhanced BCG Charging Handle: Geissele Super (Blk) Sights: Front only: A.R.M.S. 71-LF Light: SureFire M340C Mini Scout, #A200771, 500 Lumens, CR123A battery LOWER RECEIVER: Aero Precision M4E1 # M4-00----- Trigger Group: Geissele SSA-E Safety Selector: Geissele Super Duty Ambidextrous Dog-Leg Bolt Catch: Geissele Maritime Mag Release: Geissele with Geissele button Pivot Pins: Geissele Super Duty Receiver Extension: VLTOR A5 System Buffer: VLTOR A5 H2, 5.3 oz. w/ Geissele 42 spring End Plate: FN Castle Nut: Aero Precision Stock: Mission First Tactical, Battlelink Minimalist Milspec Stock Grip: Magpul MOE+ Vertical Grip: Magpul MVG Miscellaneous: SCOPE: Trijicon ACOG TA31-CH, 4x32, # 008-----, Red Crosshair Mount: American Defense MFG: AD-B3-C-H CANTILEVER -TALL (2110) Weight: 7 lbs. 12 oz. You might say that what I use is overkill for everyday rifles, but I also have put the safest tires on my cars regardless of cost. I trusted my life in Nam to government spec, low-bidder everything. I survived, but learned that there are certain things in which you never cut corners. . “Leave the Artillerymen alone, they are an obstinate lot. . .” – Napoleon Bonaparte http://poundsstudio.com/ | |||
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Firearms Enthusiast |
Cannot comment on current quality and pricing but IMO AR’s aren't a one and done gun. One leads to another and so on. I think very few here can say they have only one ar and that the first ar they bought has served all needs and wants. If they can then they were not that interested in the ar platform or were very lucky with the first choice. AR’s are a really fun path to go down. The choice's, options and configurations are endless. I would start with a decent quality and priced that doesn't break the bank. This will allow you to get your feet wet and then lead you in a direction which your use and interest takes you. | |||
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Member |
^^^ The last two sentences above is good advice from Mustang-PaPa to get started. | |||
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Green grass and high tides |
i think there is a lot good info posted. Having said that. A S&W M&P shot until it got so hot it caught on fire is a pretty good testament to what an entry level AR can do. Rugers, DPMS, Anderson, etc. Can compete with their more expensive counter parts. Whether in a defense situation or plinking situation. I think a lot of the "tier" talk is overrated myself. If there is a difference it is not substantial. So imho opinion if you want or feel you need an AR for whatever purpose. Buying one from a reputable source is going to serve you well every time if you care and maintain it. "Practice like you want to play in the game" | |||
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posting without pants |
Depends. (doesn't it always) As with most firearms, there a "tiers" so to speak. There is bargain basement junk. There is decent and there is "top of the line" For most of us, either of the latter two are just fine. It really depends on what you are going to do with it. If you are gonna shoot it at the range, then really, anything is fine except the lowest of the low. I have a couple mid/high end AR's, and a couple of mid range AR's. I don't have any uber high end ones. Not that they aren't nice, but I don't see the need for one. If you want to put good optics on it and use it as a longer range rifle (at least for a 5.56 round type long range) then certainly spend the extra money to get the best. If you are gonna play at the range, and keep a good rifle to defend you and yours with, get a decent mid range one, and invest the money you save into ammo to train and practice with. I'll take a mid range rifle in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, vs a high end rifle in the hands of someone who doesn't shoot it any day. Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
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quarter MOA visionary |
IMO, if you are asking a question like this ... you need to get some experience with one and then you will truly know the difference. At least go to a store and physically examine them and talk to the gun store guys to figure out what you need to start . Then shoot it and you will figure it out. Asking questions with zero experience is largely meaningless as it doesn't apply to you. | |||
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Member |
If you are looking for a general purpose AR-15 that is reliable and accurate enough for HD and hitting steel plates at 250, there are a lot of reasonably priced choices. I have shot many Colts, FNs, Sigs, M&P 15A & T models, etc.. that do fine for this. If you want to spend more for incremental improvements, then think through exactly what you need the weapon to do. Don’t forget about the basics that you’ll need. A good sling for example is worth every penny. Chances are good you’ll spend as much or possibly more money on add ons than you did on the rifle. + | |||
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That rug really tied the room together. |
The hate for Colt is nonsense. I have a gamut of old and new Colt rifles and the new stuff is just as good as the old stuff. It doesn't say M4 carbine on the side anymore. Oh noes!!! The horror!! Throw it in a dumpster !! Its STILL a good rifle, with properly made mil spec components made by govt contractors. Its reliable. And accurate. I have looked at many new Colt rifles and cant find anything wrong with them. At all. Its STILL a better rifle than a Smith Sport and yes they can still be found for under $1000. Every Colt rifle I have ever owned has been superior in every way to every BCM rifle I have ever owned. Id throw a brand new Colt 6920 into the back of any police cruiser and consider that officer well armed, with a well made, reliable weapon. Colt was purchased by CZ and they are a far better company than anything that ran Colt for the past 20+ years. Look for great things to come out of Colt in the next decade. ______________________________________________________ Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow | |||
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Member |
Agree Bubba. Lots of Police Cruisers had (some probably still have) iron sighted 6920's. I'd feel comfortable with a 6920 as my Patrol Rifle. And thanks for clearing the air about the Colt nonsense. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
^^^Nothing wrong with the 'old' Colt AR's, but the new Colt's are absolutely NOT the same quality. Watch the video you both must have missed at the bottom of the previous page and you'll see that much has changed on the new production Colts. Since Colt lost the US .mil contract, they've ceased many of the QC processes that defined the Colt AR...FN is the new Colt! ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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Green grass and high tides |
^^^^^This has beat to death. There is Colt and then there is colt. There is a difference. Para has posted a video as others have about the issue. It is real and confirmed. "Practice like you want to play in the game" | |||
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Res ipsa loquitur |
I’d start with the bolt carrier group. If a company is cutting corners there, they are probably cutting corners elsewhere. I have a a friend with a Rock River LAR15. It has never failed but the gas key isn’t even remotely staked. It would seem safe to assume that if a company is cutting corners in the manufacture, testing, and/or assembly of the parts in a BCG, they are probably cutting corners elsewhere. __________________________ | |||
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