So I took advantage of Larue’s Ultimate Upper Kit deal and now I need something to look through on top of it. Taking into account that this will be mostly for range use, my skills are in the “building” stage, and a rough budget of ~$650 I have narrowed my scope selection down to a Nikon X1000 4-16 with m-rad reticle or a 1st Gen Vortex Viper 4-16 with the Mrad reticle. If you were spending my money which of the above two scopes would you select? And since it is inevitable, feel free to through out any other suggestions for scopes that are similar to these.

Question:
Which scope for mostly range use with the random coyote or varmint hunt mixed in?

Choices:
Nikon Black X1000
Vortex Viper 1st Gen
Other, more bestest scope

 

The Vortex has been out for a while and has been a reliable optic. The Nikon is fairly new. I was at the range last week with a fellow and his new Nikon Black. It was defective right out of the box. To say he was pissed is an understatement as he was heading out on a very expensive hunt to Colorado. Nikon makes very good optics, so this was probably just a fluke.

Good news is Nikon and Vortex have good warranties.

Might also look at the Viper PST Gen 2 lineup as well.

I would choose Nikon over Vortex every single day. That kind of a budget opens up all kinds of options. Zeiss comes to mind. Maybe even Kahles. I would choose both of those over N or V.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:
So I took advantage of Larue’s Ultimate Upper Kit deal and now I need something to look through on top of it. Taking into account that this will be mostly for range use, my skills are in the “building” stage, and a rough budget of ~$650 I have narrowed my scope selection down to a Nikon X1000 4-16 with m-rad reticle or a 1st Gen Vortex Viper 4-16 with the Mrad reticle. If you were spending my money which of the above two scopes would you select? And since it is inevitable, feel free to through out any other suggestions for scopes that are similar to these.

I would love to help, but I'm having difficulties finding out about the Vortex you mentioned. You did not give the proper name for either scope you mentioned but since there is only on Nikon Black X1000 in 4-16 with the MRAD reticle, I assume you meant the 4-16X50SF Illuminated X-MRAD reticle. For the Vortex, I see some in 4-16X44 and others in 4-16X50 with varying prices and specs.

Things to compare given the same magnification range and the objective lens diameter.

Field of view.
Eye relief.
Weight.
Length.
Main tube diameter.
Reticle (illuminate or not).
Adjustment range.
Minimum focus distance.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I would choose Nikon over Vortex every single day. That kind of a budget opens up all kinds of options. Zeiss comes to mind. Maybe even Kahles. I would choose both of those over N or V.

A Kahles at $650? Where do I find one of those? They start at $2000 and go up from there.

As for Zeiss the Conquest V4 starts at $800 and the 4-16x44 is $900 @ Euro Optics and are all MOA or Duplex reticles.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:

I would love to help, but I'm having difficulties finding out about the Vortex you mentioned. You did not give the proper name for either scope you mentioned but since there is only on Nikon Black X1000 in 4-16 with the MRAD reticle, I assume you meant the 4-16X50SF Illuminated X-MRAD reticle. For the Vortex, I see some in 4-16X44 and others in 4-16X50 with varying prices and specs.

Things to compare given the same magnification range and the objective lens diameter.

Field of view.
Eye relief.
Weight.
Length.
Main tube diameter.
Reticle (illuminate or not).
Adjustment range.
Minimum focus distance.

Sorry, the Vortex that I’m looking at is the PST 4-16x50 version. I just assumed that everyone knew what I was thinking in my head.

If you take your time you can find outstanding non chicom or se Asia garbage for outstanding value. You can find Zeiss all day. Might be slightly used. But great glass on this kind of budget. A Leupold VX-5. I have been offered glass many times at this budget that would blow away the glass the op is talking about. I would never settle for that kind of glass for the $ he is considering. You can do so much better. Maybe check swfa.
I have two Kahle scopes I think they are 2-10x42
I think I have less than $400 in each of them. Outstanding glass. A different scope than the op is considering but personally I would put it on my AR before I would do either he is considering.
I do not like a huge scope on an AR. My Kahle scope would make an outstanding predator optic, imho.

Yes yes there are deals everywhere... I just cant remember where...



Unfortunately most scopes at your price point are sourced in Japan or the PI. Even “Ameican” Leupolds at that price point are made with Japanese / SE Asia parts.

Dont get me wrong, German glass can be amazing, you just arent going to find it at your price point unless u are lucky on the used market.

Take a quick look at the Nikon P223. My son and I both have one. They are under two hundred and can be had on sale for less...

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:

Sorry, the Vortex that I’m looking at is the PST 4-16x50 version. I just assumed that everyone knew what I was thinking in my head.

That scope shows as a FFP scope at EuroOptics, for $1000 and it's discontinued.

The Kahles that ORC is talking about is probably from the Helia series, 2.5-10X50 and is a hunting scope, also discontinued and was last listed at $1000.

A question: why so much magnification on an AR? If it's for range use, at what distances and shooting at what?

If you're looking to ring steel at 400 yds, maybe you can go smaller/lighter/cheaper.

If you're looking to shooting tiny little groups on paper at 400 yds from a bench then maybe 16x is what you want.

More info, please


Edit: I see varmint/coyote in the OP. What ranges would you attempt a shot from?

Bruce

No, mine is a 42mm.

You can find high quality optics new or used for $650 with a bit of inquiry or searching.

Personally I do not think you need a ranging optic on a AR. But you can find them if you think you need that feature on your budget. And still not have to go chicom or similar.

You can add Swarovski to the list of quality hunting style scopes you can buy on the used market for $650

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:
Taking into account that this will be mostly for range use,
my skills are in the “building” stage,
rough budget of ~$650
m-rad reticle

Some points to consider.
If you haven't reviewed NikonUser's rifle scope primer thread at the top of the thread list, now is a good time to do so.

Some thoughts:
- Do you intend to make tiny groups in paper or ring more generous sized pieces of steel at the range? Tiny groups leads to higher magnification and ringing steel to lower magnification. Be realistic with your skills sets with an AR-15.
- Longer distances work better with higher magnification.
- Consider the ammo you intend to use. High magnification will be wasted with cheaper ammo.

- Will your targets be at multiple (and variable) distances, potentially zooming in and out, and shooting in variable winds? Such conditions favor a first focal plane scope. Fixed distances can often use a second focal plane scope.
- For the majority of people who do not shoot at extended distances, favor higher quality glass over high magnification.
- I highly advise looking at scope with a variable parallax feature, given that your scope magnification will almost certainly be at least 10x.

- Your preferred mrad reticle allows hold overs/unders, as well as wind holds. Understand that such a reticle generally increases the scope's cost. Which generally means that a duplex-type scope will have better glass for a given cost than an mrad-type reticle.
- I personally prefer mrad-type reticles over duplex, and am willing to pay the premium.
- Mrad-type reticles usually come with tactical-type elevation and windage dials. Such dials usually increase the cost of a scope.

If you stick with AR-15s, this will likely be a starter scope. Meaning that you may demand more from your optics down the road -- more features, better glass, more robust elevation/windage dials. Understand that once you've shot extensively while using a high-end optic, it's a challenge to go back to value-line optics.

****
Without an understanding of your intended target types, sizes, and distances it's hard to recommend the one best scope for your needs. I suspect you can do quite well with a scope that tops out in the 10x, or maybe even 12x or 14x range. For many years I shot steel targets out to 1,000 yards with a 15x optic on a bolt gun -- but one with some really clear glass. My primary competition ARs have 15x or 16x zoom optics, but these rifles consistently shoot out to 600 or 700 yards.

My ARs that more often are limited to distances of 400 or 500 yards have 2-10x optics. I also feel these scopes can print tiny groups on paper at 100 yards, but it does take the proper target type. With 10x optics I've shot a bunch of groups of 3/4 MOA or less.

At your price range you won't get ED glass, super clear long distance glass, or superior performance in low light. But you can get some pretty darn good glass. You probably won't get all-American or all-European glass. Expect manufacturing in Japan or Philippines, possibly even China. I have no issues with Japan or Philippine sources -- if they are done right. I believe that even my best scopes (Nightforce ATACR) have some Japanese products in them.

Try to look through demo scopes prior to buying a particular model. If you can visit big gun stores, try to look through every scope you can. Even better is to ask if you can see your favorites outside of the store -- so you can see longer distances and natural light.

quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
A question: why so much magnification on an AR? If it's for range use, at what distances and shooting at what?

If you're looking to ring steel at 400 yds, maybe you can go smaller/lighter/cheaper.

If you're looking to shooting tiny little groups on paper at 400 yds from a bench then maybe 16x is what you want.

More info, please


Edit: I see varmint/coyote in the OP. What ranges would you attempt a shot from?

Bruce

For distances on the coyotes I can honestly say I don’t know. I usually just get invited along to other people’s fields which can range from 200yd to 1600 yds depending on what state I’m in. Not to say that I’m capable of even reaching out to a third of that larger field but those would be my max and mins.

Save another $100 and get the Burris XTR II 3-15. Better glass and it tracks true. Burris also has a no questions asked warranty like Vortex. Much higher quality than the PST line of Vortex.

quote:

Originally posted by swage:
Save another $100 and get the Burris XTR II 3-15. Better glass and it tracks true. Burris also has a no questions asked warranty like Vortex. Much higher quality than the PST line of Vortex.

This is a valid option, too. Burris sponsors a team rifle/carbine competition in these parts, so we get to see their optics in the field. The XTR II line has nice glass, solid turrets, and reasonable reticles.

Sportoptics.com has them on sale -- some models of both the 2-10x and 3-15x are priced at $719.

Burris XTR II line is definitely a step above Vortex PST. IMO the Burris XTR is glass is similar to that of Vortex PST II. I believe both XTR II and PST II have Philippine components.

If you go onto Midway right now they are having special pricing on Vortex PST Gen2 3-15 for $674.

quote:

Originally posted by Vipers28:
If you go onto Midway right now they are having special pricing on Vortex PST Gen2 3-15 for $674.

I own this optic and it would definitely fit the bill. Mine is a FFP but for coyotes I could deal with SFP.

I just got this one for Christmas. It is a 1x6 x 24mm. Red and Green illumination with BDC.

https://www.amazon.com/TRUGLO-...ywords=truglo+1-6x24

Video Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KV7aYOdeQY