I think the only way to answer this is to buy Benny another rifle and let him shot them head to head.

If someone wants to start the go fund me, I'll chip in.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
[QUOTE]
The SCAR MK20, the LMT MARS-H, and the 417 precision models are probably the ones to dig into. SR25 and PSG-1 would be out of contention, due to a lack of external piston.

It's been a long time since I've laid hands on an H&K PSG-1, but I'm tracking it does have a piston, as it's based on H&Ks roller delayed action which IIRC is a short stroke piston system.

What are you using as a definition for what a 'battle rifle' is? Large caliber only? HK claims the 416 is a 1 MOA rifle.

Years ago, I had an FN-FAL "Match Rifle". Browning marked, IIRC. Piston gun that was very accurate but I would guess it was around 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA capable. In an amazingly stupid move, I sold it. Good luck finding one now!

Sooooo, it would seem that, if the accuracy statements made about the M110A1 are in fact true, the M14 is no more, or less, accurate than a contemporary external piston marksman's rifle. That being said, the modern rifle comes with advantages in lighter weight, ease of maintenance, and ease of mounting various optics and accessories.

IF those statements are true.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

It's been a long time since I've laid hands on an H&K PSG-1, but I'm tracking it does have a piston, as it's based on H&Ks roller delayed action which IIRC is a short stroke piston system.

The HK is roller delayed period. No piston.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

It's been a long time since I've laid hands on an H&K PSG-1, but I'm tracking it does have a piston, as it's based on H&Ks roller delayed action which IIRC is a short stroke piston system.

The HK is roller delayed period. No piston.

I guess I'm thinking of another rifle. Thanks for the correction.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CD228,

Yeah, the housing where a gas piston would be on another rifle, with the G3/91 it’s just the cocking tube. It houses the oprod and cocking handle assembly.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Years ago, I had an FN-FAL "Match Rifle". Browning marked, IIRC. Piston gun that was very accurate but I would guess it was around 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA capable. In an amazingly stupid move, I sold it. Good luck finding one now!

The Belgian civilian is not able to possess a gun that that uses military ammo, 7.62 NATO.
So FN Stamped them 308 match and sold them to civilians.
Basically the same rifle as military issue, early versions were cut for the safety sear but didn't have it installed, that's what makes it FA.
Eventually even military issue didn't have the safety sear installed.
British and Australian ones did have the safety sear but the selector has a nub to keep it from going to the FA position.

The FN and Steyer barreled FALs I had would start to string vertically after a few shots.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
I think the only way to answer this is to buy Benny another rifle and let him shot them head to head.

If someone wants to start the go fund me, I'll chip in.

Wouldn't that be fun! I appreciate the gesture!

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:
What are you using as a definition for what a 'battle rifle' is? Large caliber only? HK claims the 416 is a 1 MOA rifle.

Perhaps I should have used a different term. I should have just said piston driven semi-autos chambered in a battle rifle caliber or one with similar ballistics (308, 6.5 Creed, 30-06).

Basically comparing the M14 to rifles such as the FAL, G3 (blowback operated?), HK-416, SCAR, Sig Spear, piston driven AR-10's, etc, with a barrel length between 16 and 24 inches (just to throw the Garand in there).

Are you following me? I may post the same thing over on Sniper's Hide, just to see what kind of engagement there is.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:
From your other thread it looks like you are getting about 1.3" 5-shot group at 100 yards with your hand loads.

That was my 6.5 Creedmoor thread and that was one set of data I got. Since then, I made accuracy tweaks and bought some factory match ammo. It's averaging just under 1 MOA now. These are the latest numbers from that thread:

I made it out again on June 17th and made the following adjustments:
-Trimmed the handguard so it doesn't contact the JAE chassis
-Added 3/4 turn of draw pressure to the draw pressure screw
-Switched from ear muffs to ear plugs for better and more consistent cheek weld

I fired three shot groups, adding tension until I hit 3/4ths of a turn. All but two groups were under 1 inch. Ammo was American Eagle 120 grain OTM and Hornady Match 147 grain ELD-M. The Hornady produced a nice 0.68" 5-shot group with a final 4-shot group of 0.978".





I still have a box of Federal Gold Medal 130 grain Berger to test on my next trip.

So since starting the testing and tweaking, my groups have gone from the 2 inch range to sub-MOA with the right tuning. I still need to develop a load and add a match trigger as well as a better scope.

quote:

Originally posted by JoshNC:

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

For a no lug M14, 10 to 20 rounds to resettle and return to zero. For rear lug and double lug rifles a torque screw(s), there should be no effect.

Tony.

Interesting. Thanks. So what do you make of the reports by SOF that the M14 EBR in a Sage had such significant wandering zero issues any time they were stripped for cleaning? Old, worn out rifles that lacked rear/double lug? Operator error? My friends who speak of their experience with the EBR during deployment are not the operator error types and are great shooters. None felt confident in its ability to maintain zero. Ash Hess speaks of it regularly when interviewed on podcasts.

I was referring to traditional non-chassis rifles in my reply. I'd need more information on the rifle configuration to comment on the SAGE. If they were using the DCSB (detachable cantilever sight base), I can absolutely see that happening. That is the base I don't like from a design standpoint. The sight base is mounted on the front handguard rail with QD throw levers and the back of the mount fits into a index pin that's placed inside the stripper clip guide mount. So you have a front mounting point that's not part of the receiver or the barrel and a back contact point that's touching the receiver, not bolted to the receiver.






The handguard rail is not reference pinned and there's slop around the screw holes. Once you tear it down and reinstall it, there's no guarantee that it will line up exactly how it did before. Plus, if it's not torqued down properly, it may shift under recoil. So you have a cantilever mount that's mounted to a handguard that's not directly attached to the receiver or the barrel.

Now the top handguard has a barrel whip screw that is used to tune the chassis to the rifle. You may have to fine tune it after reinstallation.

The best scope setup for a SAGE is a scope-only receiver with a scope mounted directly to the receiver, like the LRB M25 or the Bula XM21 receiver. The next best option is a Sadlak mount which mounts directly to the side of the receiver. After that, I recommend a Bassett high Picatinny mount, modified for clearance over the picatinny rail.

Here's a Bula XM21 receiver that I'm running now. Notice how the scope is mounted directly to rails that are milled into the receiver. The front rail is part of the receiver too, but it was made to line up with the top handguard rail. It looks like it's attached to the rail, but it's not. It's part of the receiver.




The XM21 receiver...


Another question is how often did they field strip the rifle? You can go over 1,000 rounds without field stripping it. Match shooters go a season without tearing down their rifles.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

Basically comparing the M14 to rifles such as the FAL, G3 (blowback operated?), HK-416, SCAR, Sig Spear, piston driven AR-10's, etc, with a barrel length between 16 and 24 inches (just to throw the Garand in there).

I suspected as much but since it wasn't specifically stated I replied with the first piston AR that immediately popped into my (apparently somewhat feeble) mind, which happened to be a 5.56 rifle that I don't own and absolutely and completely forgetting that I actually DO own a piston AR-15 that I have shot sub-MOA groups in the past. Having now confessed to that embarrassing forgetfulness (in my meek defense I did do that with the rifle well over 4 years ago, pre-COVID), PWS reps in the past have told me that both their long-stroke AR-10 Mk214 and Mk216 in .308 are sub-MOA rifles. If they mirror my .223 Wylde Mk114's sub-MOA ability, then I'd say that their claim is believable.