Over the last year I've been focusing my efforts on building the Baja bug, but being furloughed about 3 weeks ago, I got it wrapped up for now and decided to go to the range.

This called for loading some 223. I've got a Dillon 550 and the 223 tool head still had powder in it, so I confirmed the weight of the powder drop, loaded up 100 small rifle primers and started loading.

After about 20 rounds the primer feeder quit feeding and about the same time the powder drop also quit ... I weighed my finished cartridges and 2 had gotten finished without powder so I pulled the bullet out and set them aside.

For some reason the feeder mechanism all of a sudden gummed up, took it apart and cleaned it and turned my attention to the powder drop ... some how it had gotten a clump wedged in the powder funnel ... and the powder resivor was still half full.

Resumed loading and about 20 rounds later the neck of the cartridge was shoved down and mushroomed out ... I'd never seen this before! At first I wasn't sure of what stage it was happening and it wasn't happening with every round, just every 3 or 4th, then it would crush one ... turns out it was the crimp stage, the crimped would stick instead if sliding up in the die and crimping.

Finally ended up with 92 finished rounds that I confirmed by visual inspection and finish weight.

When I got out to the range, I was amazed, it was empty and the rest of the day went great ... it was the first time I'd shot this 20 something year old JP Enterprise upper and since I changed the lower receiver from a Bushmaster receiver with a hand-honed service rifle FCG and Wilson trigger I made into a trigger-shoe. to a Sharps "Jack", a real 2-stage trigger and Magpul PRS stock & grip, so it would "kinda" match my JP Enterprise 6.5 Creedmoor Sharps "Jack".

For the best part of the last 20 years it looked like this, and this is the best of 5 targets) 3-shot group from back then.





Now with the Jack receiver the upper to lower fit is a bit sloppy, but in all fairness in the Bushmaster receiver had a JP Enterprise Tension pin that pulls the upper and lower together and makes them a rock solid unit ... I'm going to move it over and see if I can't tighten up the groups next week ... they aren't "bad" but they used to be much tighter; or maybe the barrel is just worn out

Granted these are 10 shot groups, and in both I pulled a couple, but I was hoping for better ... maybe I could blame it on my glasses(which I didnt need back then)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kimberkid,

Looks like a good day indeed. I used to reload and wish I still had all of my equipment I bought years ago.

Well done

Got the JP Tension Pin moved over to the new receiver, had some KNS trigger pins and put them in as well ...

Hopefully take another trip to the range tomorrow, going to also see if there is a difference between mag fed or single feed with my Sinclair mag for single round loading.

I got up early before the rain started to shoot the JP upper again to see if the Tension Pin made any difference and my group’s tightened up considerably. Different targets, the center is a 1/2” square(diamond), and the ones in the corners are 1/4”

Both targets are 10 in the center and 5 in the corners

First target, all rounds are single load



Second target, all rounds are mag fed.

Good shooting, I see mostly vertical in your groups. How did you shoot? Bench, prone, rear bag...?

I was at the bench, off a bipod

maybe tweak your loads a bit? if you are using new powder vs the stuff 20yrs ago,

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
maybe tweak your loads a bit? if you are using new powder vs the stuff 20yrs ago,

I’m open to suggestions, seems powders, like technology is always changing. What’s a good current ball powder that’ll feed through my Dillon?

This isn’t ammo I’d shoot a match with, so likely more variables come into play than just the powder. The brass, that while it all looks okay, I’ve accumulated it over the years. It’s different brands and headstamps and none were prepped, just cleaned, lubed and ran through my 20+year old Dillon 550. The primer pockets were not cleaned or uniformed, nor were flash holes deburred or necks turned, I used standard primers. While its a premium barrel, it’s 20+ years old and even though it’s been babied it has 7-10K rounds through it.

Then there’s me, at 62 I doubt I’m as steady as even 20 years ago ... and I don’t shoot nearly as much as I used too, I haven’t shot more than a case a year for a couple years, that’s including pistol & rifle and in the last year most of my spare time has been directed at building my Baja bug.

Ramshot TAC will meter well enough in your Dillon.

Use a rear bag?

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
maybe tweak your loads a bit? if you are using new powder vs the stuff 20yrs ago,

I’m open to suggestions, seems powders, like technology is always changing. What’s a good current ball powder that’ll feed through my Dillon?

This isn’t ammo I’d shoot a match with, so likely more variables come into play than just the powder. The brass, that while it all looks okay, I’ve accumulated it over the years. It’s different brands and headstamps and none were prepped, just cleaned, lubed and ran through my 20+year old Dillon 550. The primer pockets were not cleaned or uniformed, nor were flash holes deburred or necks turned, I used standard primers. While its a premium barrel, it’s 20+ years old and even though it’s been babied it has 7-10K rounds through it.

Then there’s me, at 62 I doubt I’m as steady as even 20 years ago ... and I don’t shoot nearly as much as I used too, I haven’t shot more than a case a year for a couple years, that’s including pistol & rifle and in the last year most of my spare time has been directed at building my Baja bug.

I'm still using some old 748 and 844 from when I used to shoot alot,

I have had good luck with 4064 and 4895,, but not thru a dillon,, (using a Redding powder measure)

I agree with offgrid that vertical variation seems to be your primary accuracy issue. A few thoughts....

7k to 10k rounds on a 223 barrel is more than enough to decrease accuracy. A shot out barrel usually shows itself at longer distances first. My shot out AR-15 barrels were still pretty accurate at 100 yards, but I pulled them when accuracy went south at 300-400 yards. Vertical stringing was the primary accuracy problem. With my stainless steel barrels, accuracy went from good to crap within 100-200 rounds.

I vaguely recall you shoot SMK 69 loads in your AR-15 when shooting for accuracy. Factory ammo with SMK 69 bullets are universally the most accurate loads across my multiple barrels. If SMK 69 ammo won't shoot in a rifle with an adequate twist rate, the barrel is likely toast.

I suspect you're using some form of rear bag with your bipod on the bench. Vertical stringing can occur from both the front and the rear of the rifle. A Harris bipod is prone to hopping, especially from a hard, smooth surface and when the bipod isn't loaded properly. This could be a source of some vertical stringing.

Vertical stringing has been an ongoing issue for me, generally by throwing rounds higher than POA. My high rounds were a combination of:
- Excess downward cheek weld pressure on the buttstock. Mainly a technique flaw, this was made worse by some scopes being mounted too low.
- Relaxing my hand grip on the rear bag right as I was breaking the shot.
These two dropped the rear of the gun, sending the shot high. I pretty much figured this out during a 2-day precision rifle match, while talking through some of my sheep-dip stages with a buddy I was shooting with.

Although it's possible that large muzzle velocity variations among rounds could cause your vertical stringing, I doubt your ammo has that much MV variation.

I load my precision 223 loads using a 68 gn Hornady BTHP with Varget. It allows me to shoot sub 3/10 MOA at 100 yards. And alternate powder that I have tried is CFE223 and it meters well and will get me just a bit under 1/2 MOA. You may want to pick up a pound of the CFE to try out. One downside to the CFE is that whatever the chemical mix is that actually does reduce copper fouling also leaves the BCG pretty filthy with a black gummy residue. Note, Ballistol will clean up the BCG very quickly so it's not really much of an issue. BTW, my rifle is equipped with a 20 inch Shilen 1:8 barrel in a Gibbz Arms side charging upper.

Thanks for your insight offgrid
I'll take a look around for Ramshot TAC, the best place to find a range of powders is GunShows of which there aren't any right now and no idea when we will have another ...

As to rear bag, I just use my left hand under the stock to adjust the rear height, the picture above is old aunt it now sports a MagPul PTR. The tall shape of the PTR stock and the short Harris bipod makes it so only a little correction is needed for the back, however then in that position I don't have a free hand to control the "Harris Hop"

==

Thanks too Scooter123;
I'll also look for CFE223. Ironically when I first started shooting a friend that helped me get started recommended Hodgeson's BL-C2 which meters well and is a good powder for both 223 and 308, but is also a very dirty powder!
I've tried Varget and agree it is a cleaner burning, superior powder but found this type of powder doesn't meter well so after I worked up a load, weighing charge I used it up for shooting matches in match prepared brass ... after it was gone I didn't buy any more because except for from the bench, my shooting skills didn't warrant that much work!

My barrel is a 24" JP Enterprise cryotreated stainless steel, I've been happy with it but I may try something different in the future. I'm not sure when my focus shifted from the smallest group possible to practical accuracy but for the last 7-10 years I've been fairly content with hitting a grapefruit size target off-hand at 100 and center mass of at 2-300yards.

==

frits, as always your input is appreciated ...
The degraded accuracy of the barrel was my primary concern. I could shoot at longer distances but its not always convenient. Our local range is 300 yards and built on a fairly steep hillside which is mud this time of year. My other place to shoot is a friends farm, I can shoot up to 485yards over one of his fields until his corn gets too tall ... but weather plays a part in that too as its a low laying area. The other down side to shooting there is the bench is a wooden pic-nic bench or off the back of my truck.

I've got an Atlas on the 6.5 Creedmoor I put together a couple years ago, a Versa-Pod and could also try a sand bag. As mentioned above, I just use my left hand under the stock to adjust the rear height, the tall shape of the PTR stock and the short Harris bipod makes it so little correction is needed for the back, but then I don't have a free hand to control the "Harris Hop" ... I've also got a short mono-pod I can try so that my to free-up my left hand. It seems I'd tried it when I got it and it was cumbersome.
I hadn't thought that I may have been tensing or relaxing my hand just as the the hammer breaks, great observation even using a bag.

I do think the groups tightened up with the addition of the tension pin as it eliminated the upper/lower slop by pulling them together unlike a rubber wedge or screw under the pistol grip which pushes them apart.

Correcting my technique and tweaking my load ... maybe even prepping some brass might help my 100yard targets ... and maybe I'll get time/opportunity before I go back to work on the 18th to shoot at 300yard or more ...

I know you shoot a lot, so much that you seem to go through barrels frequently, and you have mentioned previously that you don't reload, so I assume you shoot premium factory ammo's ... what kind of accuracy do you shoot for, or maybe a better way to put it, what size of group do you consider "accuracy going south" at 300-400yards?

kimberkid,

for using your fist and not a rear bag for rear support, nice job! It's very difficult to not have vertical w/o a rear bag. Especially with the slow lock time of a gasser. Break the trigger, your cheek pressure changes because of lack of support, rifle dips up/down....

JP Cryo treats their barrels. Do you know if your barrel was Cryo treated? A few fellow competitors around me have 10K+ JP barrels that still shoot.

I suggest to get a rear bag before chasing a load. Or do both!

Here's a good bag.

https://www.bisontactical.com/...-rifle-baseline-bag/

Ya, looks like any other bag. The fill used is different then others, locks together very well. I switched to this fill on my rear bags.

I'm not using TAC, I single load with Varget/77SMK's. Many around me use TAC in their Dillons. If you get some TAC, glad to get their loads.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
<snip>

JP Cryo treats their barrels. Do you know if your barrel was Cryo treated? A few fellow competitors around me have 10K+ JP barrels that still shoot.

I suggest to get a rear bag before chasing a load. Or do both!

Here's a good bag.

https://www.bisontactical.com/...-rifle-baseline-bag/

Ya, looks like any other bag. The fill used is different then others, locks together very well. I switched to this fill on my rear bags.

I'm not using TAC, I single load with Varget/77SMK's. Many around me use TAC in their Dillons. If you get some TAC, glad to get their loads.

It is cryo'd which was the reason I went with them. Back then I think they were about the only company doing cryo but there were companies you could sent your barrel to, to have it done.

Back then I think molly coating was also just getting its start, I bought a small canister of molly powder (and still have most of it). I tumble my bullets (in one specific drum) until it adhears instead of using the spray on ... very few non-molly bullets have gone down the tube. But I've always wondered how it affects the throat as you have to load them a bit hotter to get the same MV because they're slicker. I've seen where some people said they would get little balls of molly build up in the barrel but I've never seen that ... I don't know if its because my barrel was cryo'd or because its always had molly or?

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
<snip>
I'm still using some old 748 and 844 from when I used to shoot alot,

<snip>

I've tried 844 before but at the time, but I was hooked on BL-C2, not sure why ... maybe because it didnt work or work well for my 308 rounds (SMK 168 HPBT). Those were the only rifle rounds I loaded for early on and I liked buying in bulk so I usually bought 8pounds of powder and 5Kcases of primers as I was shooting about 1K of each every month.
What kind of accuracy do you get from it? Or 748?

I must respond in stages. Time pressures at the office are pretty challenging now. I did get a little shooting time today, following many hours of ranch duty.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
...you have mentioned previously that you don't reload, so I assume you shoot premium factory ammo's ... what kind of accuracy do you shoot for, or maybe a better way to put it, what size of group do you consider "accuracy going south" at 300-400yards?

I don't shoot all that many groups at 100 yards -- but definitely when evaluating a new barrel. Following the 100-yard evaluations, almost everything else is steel targets at 200+ yards. Every 223/5.56 barrel I've owned has been capable of sub-1" groups at 100 yards, with multiple types of factory ammo. My best barrels do this with just about any decent ammo, with groups down to the .3" to .5" level.

I practice in a windy plains area. A 40-50 tower commercial wind farm is within eyesight. As a result, I evaluate accuracy at 300-400 yards by how well the ammo holds vertical variation. Holding wind correctly is too much of a crap shoot. At the time of my first AR15 barrel's retirement, I expected about 1 MOA of vertical at longer distances. My technique has improved since that time, and I now expect 1/2 to 3/4 MOA vertical, with the right ammo.

My first barrel held 1 MOA vertical with Federal GMM 69 really well -- until it didn't. The change occurred over a couple of days' practice. Vertical dispersion at 440 yards deteriorated to 2.75 MOA with FGMM. POI dropped, and I had to dial an additional 1.25 MOA more elevation at 440 yards. Muzzle velocity obviously decreased, but I didn't have a good chronograph at that time.

The next retired barrel went south during a match. I experienced a number of low impacts on 300-350 yard targets. I couldn't hit 400 yard plates worth a darn. Wind was testy that weekend, and the tall grass behind the targets resulted in limited feedback on misses. When I tested the rifle at home, the ammo lost 80 fps MV. POI at 450 yards was 3/4 MOA low. POI at 500 yards was 1 MOA low. Interestingly, this barrel still barely held 1 MOA vertical dispersion at 400 yards -- with most groups. With another match looming, I pulled the barrel.

Bottom line -- my methods to determine when an AR barrel is toast:
- Group sizes and shapes at 100 yards (IMO the least telling)
- Muzzle velocity decreases for a standard load (really important)
- Dramatically increased vertical dispersion at longer distances (really important)
- Noticeably lower POI at long distances (really important)
IMO it's critical to have good baseline data on a rifle, so I know when something other than poor technique is causing poor results down range.

FWIW, I'm slowing reducing the types of ammo I stock. Most of my 223/5.56 barrels shoot Hornady Black 75 HPBT really well. This is now my standard match round. All of them shoot FGMM 69 with great accuracy. Hornady 75 performs much better at distance in windy conditions than FGMM 69. Hornady 55 Vmax shoots well in all my barrels, but wind plays havoc with its accuracy beyond 250-ish yards. Hornady 73 ELD-M shines in one barrel, does pretty well in a few others.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
I just use my left hand under the stock to adjust the rear height, the tall shape of the PTR stock and the short Harris bipod makes it so little correction is needed for the back, but then I don't have a free hand to control the "Harris Hop" ... I've also got a short mono-pod I can try so that my to free-up my left hand. It seems I'd tried it when I got it and it was cumbersome.

Recoil is the primary cause of bipod hop. If someone can invent a rifle without recoil, many accuracy issues disappear. Even a 223 rifle produces recoil. It might only be 3-4 foot pounds of kinetic energy, but that's enough to move the rifle to the rear after breaking the shot.

Harris and similar bipods are designed so the legs are rigid -- when the rifle moves, the bipod moves with it. Let's say an AR15 moves backwards 1/2" during recoil, and the shooter is firing the rifle from a smooth/firm/flat surface. Like a bench rest. As the rifle moves backwards 1/2", the bipod's feet move backwards 1/2". If the bipod's feet don't slide smoothly on the surface, the bipod will momentarily bind against the surface, then release, then hop. Now if the bipod's feet are smooth pieces of teflon, and the bench surface is a smooth piece of teflon, the bipod will likely slide straight back without a hop.

Nevertheless, even with the smooth rearward teflon slide above, the rifle is still moving. If that movement isn't perfectly straight back, and if the sights don't stay exactly on Point Of Aim ("POA") during the entire recoil cycle, there's a strong possibility that the gun's rearward movement will also push the bullet away from the POA.

Atlas and similar bipods are designed with a little slack in the legs -- when the rifle moves to the rear, the bipod system slack can allow the bipod's feet to remain stationary to the ground. For an Atlas that's been around the block a few times, on its lowest setting this allows the rifle to move up to 1" fore/aft without disturbing the contact points of the feet. Voila -- a better chance of eliminating bipod hop. With an Atlas, we "load" the bipod by pressing the rifle forward prior to breaking the shot. When recoil occurs, in theory the slack is enough to keep the feet firmly attached to the shooting surface. No bipod feet movement, no bipod hop.

The other part of the equation is keeping the rifle aligned with the POA during recoil. This is more shooting technique than equipment. The higher the rifle's recoil energy, the harder this is to do. I first saw this in a Rifles Only ("RO") course, where the owner had a camera hooked up to rifle scopes. We students monitored exactly what was occurring through the scope via a laptop screen.

Our instructor first hooked up the camera to a suppresed AR15. He shot a few rounds with poor technique. The rifle's reticle jumped all around the point of aim during recoil, then settled down. Then we could search the shoot-n-see target for the location of the POI. Generally, whichever way the reticle moved from the POA, that was the general direction of the POI.

Then he shot the AR with his best technique. The reticle just didn't move from the POA (the center dot on a shoot-n-see paster) and we immediately saw the POI near the center of the paster. He repeated the demonstration with a suppressed 308 bolt action, using both lackluster and great technique. He then removed the suppressor from the 308, and shot lackluster and great technique. It was obvious how higher recoil forces made it increasingly difficult to keep the reticle exactly on POA.

I learned from this demonstration (and from years of subsequent shooting) that precision shooting virtually demands the reticle stay with 1 MOA of the POA during the entire recoil cycle. Or maybe as much as 2 MOA of the POA if everything else is working correctly. Based on what I observed when a few other students used the rifle scope camera, and from when I'm shooting like crap, I suspect most shooters experience a minimum of 3-4 MOA reticle movement during the recoil cycle. With magnum calibers, the reticle movement is even greater. With this much rifle movement during recoil, accuracy tends to really suffer.

On Sunday I had a brief window to shoot. Winds from my right didn't help accurate shooting. My primary goal with the 6.5CM was to confirm 100-yard zero with suppressor cover on and no Magnetospeed. And to determine if various muzzle velocities of a couple of factory ammo loads correlated to JBM-predicted elevation requirements at 800 yards. I also brought a 16" AR15 that I wanted to confirm 100-yard zero with my competition ammo. Cross winds were high enough that I really couldn't be confident with exact windage at the zero. But I'm pretty good with elevation now.

Following maybe 5 dry-fire shots, cold bore with the 6.5CM produced a 5-round group of .29" at 100 yards. My reticle moved no more than 1 MOA on every round. That felt good and I knew technique was solid. Mirage was so bad that the 1" paster target was dancing at least 1/4" to 3/8" in my scope at 20-ish power. I measured wind at 10+ mph from my right.

On to a plate at 800 yards. Mirage was worse, as I was shooting across 250 yards of flat ground. The sun was high, wind made the mirage look like a flowing river. I couldn't see the 800 yard plate sharply, so I did reticle holds off the top and right edges. Technique didn't feel all that good. Reticle generally jumped up and right 2-ish MOA on every shot. Close to 3 MOA on 2 shots with my first 6 rounds. One shot actually missed the 18" high by 24" wide plate. Roh-roh. I really couldn't see impacts on a freshly white painted plate -- I judged impact location by plate movement and tone of the hit.

After repainting the plate, on to another load. Still seeing reticle jump of 1.5-ish MOA during recoil, generally up. Interestingly, even with this reticle jump, POI was good. 5 rounds with 3" vertical and 10.5" horizontal dispersion. I'll take 3" of vertical at 800 yards any day.

On to the AR15 to confirm 100-yard zero. My technique was spot on -- hardly any reticle movement during recoil, definitely less than 1 MOA. No pulled shots. Results weren't so good, however. My 100-yard groups were 1" to 1.25". But after obtaining a good elevation zero, I tried the 800 yard plate. Hardly any reticle movement, dope should have been spot on. Zero hits in 11 rounds. Crap. I also had a 12" plate at 570 yards. 9 shots -- first 3 were misses, figured out the wind, and then got 6 hits in a row. 6.5" vertical dispersion. OK, but nothing special. I guess I've had better days with an AR15.

*****
How do we control the rifle during recoil, so the reticle stays on POA?

Your rear support is really important. Lots of downward cheek weld pressure isn't good. Allowing your rear support bag (or hand or post or whatever) to change height while breaking the shot is bad. Your rear bag height must adapt to the gap between the ground and your buttstock.

Here's a place where my technique differs from offgrid's. Especially with ARs, I have the buttstock somewhat firmly pressed into my clavicle. This limits the rifle's rearward movement during recoil, which helps me to keep the reticle on POA. Essentially, I'm loading the bipod up front and loading my clavicle to the rear. Offgrid doesn't use as much rearward buttstock pressure on his shoulder, but he does load the bipod. Offgrid shoots AR15s really well. So....you need to determine what works for you.