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Admin/Odd Duck

Picture of lbj
posted
I couldn't help myself and got on the pre-order list. Going to be a bit on the heavy side.
https://fnestore.com/fn-15-m4-upper-assembly

Which scope should I get? I won't be shooting anything beyond 100 yards or so and would like to be able to quickly acquire the sight picture.


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New and improved super concentrated me:
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There is iron in my words of death for all to see.
So there is iron in my words of life.

 
Posts: 31418 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get on the fifty!
Picture of Andyb
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FWIW you can get the entire rifle for a 100 or so bucks more and without a wait
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1027154602



"Pickin' stones and pullin' teats is a hard way to make a living. But, sure as God's got sandals, it beats fightin' dudes with treasure trails."

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Posts: 3559 | Location: OK | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Admin/Odd Duck

Picture of lbj
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Whoa, very nice. Might have to go that route.
Thanks.

I have zero experience with a scope though and I despise the BUIS. What to get....


____________________________________________________
New and improved super concentrated me:
Proud rebel, heretic, and Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal.


There is iron in my words of death for all to see.
So there is iron in my words of life.

 
Posts: 31418 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
posted Hide Post
lpvo? or something else lbj?



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 19001 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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My advice is to buy the entire rifle, and then you'll really have something.

Scope? An LPVO, one of the Trijicon Credos would be my choice:

https://www.trijicon.com/produ...con-credo-riflescope

The scopes are made for Trijicon by Light Optical Works in Japan. I have a couple of the Accupower 1-4x (essentially the same scope, but an older model.) They are superb, a best buy IMO.

Shown in a Warne XSKEL mount



 
Posts: 106921 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
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LPVO or an Eotech would be my choice.
 
Posts: 22740 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified All Positions
Picture of arcwelder
posted Hide Post
Just buy the whole rifle.

For 100 or less, an LVPO or red dot is a solid choice.


Arc.
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Posts: 27000 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Mistake Not...
Picture of Loswsmith
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If you don't have astigmatism or anything that will F-up the red dot, I'd say for most purposes an Aimpoint in the Pro categories (either the bigger or smaller based on your needs and budget) would be a great choice for this. If you are going to remove the BUIS then you have plenty of rail space for a magnifier if you need that.

And get the entire rifle.


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Posts: 1935 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
Three Nails To Protect Us
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Not shooting past 100
Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint ACRO P2 mounted on a Kinetic Development Sidelok Mount


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Posts: 25258 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'd go with an Aimpoint red dot.
 
Posts: 269 | Location: Iowa | Registered: April 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Spread the Disease
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I really liked both an ACOG and a red dot on my M4gery. It depends if you want it set up more for short or long range. An EOTech was also very nice. An LPVO can potentially get you a bit of both.


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-- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. --
 
Posts: 17204 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: October 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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Given your requirements, I think you know what you want.
 
Posts: 1047 | Location: Lincoln, Nebraska U.S.A. | Registered: July 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
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An illuminated LPVO that gives you a true 1x view with minimal fisheye or barrel distortion functions as an RDS, but the RDS cannot function as a magnified optic (unless you add a magnifier, and these magnifier/RDS combos are usually rather heavy and somewhat cumbersome with the side-swinging magnifier mount.)

Take a quality RDS, say, an Aimpoint Pro, and point it at an 18" target 100 yards downrange. Is it just me, or does the dot on that sight obscure enough of the target to make a precision shot difficult?

Furthermore, if you have astigmatism, an RDS doesn't work as well for you. In my case, I have mild astigmatism in my dominant eye, and when I look at the dot in an RDS, I do see the dot, but I also see a cluster of smaller dots (three, to be precise) at about the 1:30 position, a few degrees from the dot. This is rather distracting, though it does not prevent me from recognizing the primary dot.

In refracting optics, I experience none of that, and almost all of such optics have dioptric adjustment which can be dialed to make the reticle clear.

LPVOs with even a moderate zoom ratio offer an advantage over the RDS with shots at all but close range. A 1-4x LPVO can make a target 100 yards away appear to be 25 yards away, and of course, the newer 1-6, 8 and 10x scopes bring your target even closer.

It's true that a quality RDS allow for fast target acquisition at close to moderate ranges, but this is also true of a quality LPVO that has all but the most restrictive field of view.

One advantage of the RDS over the LPVO is weight. IIRC, my Aimpoint Pro in an ADM mount comes in at about 9 ounces, whereas the Accupower/Warne combination pictured above is right at 24 ounces. I am a big believer in keeping the weight down on rifles. Taking all the above into consideration, though, I think the LPVO is worth the additional weight.

**edit**

Looks like the Aimpoint/ADM combo is about 11 ounces, not 9. That's still substantially lighter then the Accupower/Warne combo, and that's one of the lighter LPVOs and lighter mounts. When you add QD functionality to the mount, it starts to get heavy.
 
Posts: 106921 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Doin' what I can
with what I got
Picture of Rob Decker
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If you're going to buy a clone upper, why not a clone correct optic?

EOTech, Aimpoint Comp series (any of them from the M2 to the M4 have been the Army Rifle Close Combat Optic (CCO)), or the TA31 series 4x ACOG from Trijicon will get your USGI juices flowing. And all of them are suitable optics.

The red dots will be better close-in. If you're staying within 100 yards, don't bother with the ACOG, it'll just slow you down. 100-300yd the ACOG will work just fine, and it'll carry you to 500yd if your eyes are good enough.


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Posts: 5536 | Location: Greater Nashville, TN | Registered: May 11, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Decker:
If you're going to buy a clone upper, why not a clone correct optic?
And Colion says he won't even change out the A2 grip on the rifle, even though he hates that grip.

He needs to put a sling on it, though...

 
Posts: 106921 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
An illuminated LPVO that gives you a true 1x view with minimal fisheye or barrel distortion functions as an RDS, but the RDS cannot function as a magnified optic (unless you add a magnifier, and these magnifier/RDS combos are usually rather heavy and somewhat cumbersome with the side-swinging magnifier mount.)

Take a quality RDS, say, an Aimpoint Pro, and point it at an 18" target 100 yards downrange. Is it just me, or does the dot on that sight obscure enough of the target to make a precision shot difficult?

Furthermore, if you have astigmatism, an RDS doesn't work as well for you. In my case, I have mild astigmatism in my dominant eye, and when I look at the dot in an RDS, I do see the dot, but I also see a cluster of smaller dots (three, to be precise) at about the 1:30 position, a few degrees from the dot. This is rather distracting, though it does not prevent me from recognizing the primary dot.

In refracting optics, I experience none of that, and almost all of such optics have dioptric adjustment which can be dialed to make the reticle clear.

LPVOs with even a moderate zoom ratio offer an advantage over the RDS with shots at all but close range. A 1-4x LPVO can make a target 100 yards away appear to be 25 yards away, and of course, the newer 1-6, 8 and 10x scopes bring your target even closer.

It's true that a quality RDS allow for fast target acquisition at close to moderate ranges, bit this is also true of a quality LPVO that has all but the most restrictive field of view.

One advantage of the RDS over the LPVO is weight. IIRC, my Aimpoint Pro in an ADM mount comes in at about 9 ounces, whereas the Accupower/Warne combination pictured above is right at 24 ounces. I am a big believer in keeping the weight down on rifles. Taking all the above into consideration, though, I think the LPVO is worth the additional weight.

**edit**

Looks like the Aimpoint/ADM combo is about 11 ounces, not 9. That's still substantially lighter then the Accupower/Warne combo, and that's one of the lighter LPVOs and lighter mounts. When you add QD functionality to the mount, it starts to get heavy.


Good points. Another one that I will add, after recently hosting a shoot with some friends...

I usually shoot my match rifles that have LPVOs. This time, I brought out some of my more HD geared ARs with red dots. I had forgotten how frequently a RDS is deficient at 100 yards under suboptimal light conditions. If the sun is in your eyes, and the targets are in the shade, a RDS can be a major impediment to even finding the targets, much less hitting them.


I am fortunate that I can shoot on natural terrain on my own land. People who do not have that luxury and only shoot on groomed ranges may only be accustomed to shooting at a known distance target, with no obstructing foliage or shadows, and perhaps even an overhead cover to keep the sun and rain off of the shooting line.


A good LPVO or even a TA33 Acog are both an excellent choice.
 
Posts: 14094 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
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The ACOG optics have really great glass and they are of course quite rugged, but they do not have sufficient eye relief for my tastes.

The LPVOs with greater zoom ratios can be heavier than they are worth IMO. I think the 1-4 is just about right.

Regarding the RDS at greater than moderate distances, yes, I think they are not what's called for. AFAIC, the 1x RDS is made for close to moderate distances.

One last thing I forgot to mention, and that's the advantage of an LPVO if the battery dies; the reticle remains visible, but it's not illuminated. Yes, an RDS without the dot visible functions as a ghost ring sight if you have a pinned FSB or if you pop up your folded front sight, but it's not going to allow for a measure of precision. All of this may be merely academic, but it's factual.
 
Posts: 106921 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
The ACOG optics have really great glass and they are of course quite rugged, but they do not have sufficient eye relief for my tastes.

The LPVOs with greater zoom ratios can be heavier than they are worth IMO. I think the 1-4 is just about right.

Regarding the RDS at greater than moderate distances, yes, I think they are not what's called for. AFAIC, the 1x RDS is made for close to moderate distances.



The TA33 alone has decent eye relief. It is a 3x magnification with smaller FOV but much better eye relief than the 3.5x or 4x version.

I found this crappy resolution picture of me using a TA33 at a multigun match a long while back, to give an idea of the optimal eye relief for that particular model.



All that being said, the TA33 is gone and I prefer LPVOs, but it would be an ok option for someone seeking to shed a few ounces.
 
Posts: 14094 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Doin' what I can
with what I got
Picture of Rob Decker
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
The ACOG optics have really great glass and they are of course quite rugged, but they do not have sufficient eye relief for my tastes.

The LPVOs with greater zoom ratios can be heavier than they are worth IMO. I think the 1-4 is just about right.

Regarding the RDS at greater than moderate distances, yes, I think they are not what's called for. AFAIC, the 1x RDS is made for close to moderate distances.

One last thing I forgot to mention, and that's the advantage of an LPVO if the battery dies; the reticle remains visible, but it's not illuminated. Yes, an RDS without the dot visible functions as a ghost ring sight if you have a pinned FSB or if you pop up your folded front sight, but it's not going to allow for a measure of precision. All of this may be merely academic, but it's factual.


ACOG certainly does have a TINY eyebox.

My peers and eye were taught not just to make a cheekweld but to try to get the tip of our nose on the charging handle (yay adjustable stocks!). This is a limitation, but if you've ever been stuck in a high bay doing up-down drills, it becomes pretty natural after more repetitions than I'd like to count.

My next optic will be a LPVO, but I'm actively looking for a deal on an RDS and mount for my ACOG to try that setup as well.


----------------------------------------
Death smiles at us all. Be sure you smile back.
 
Posts: 5536 | Location: Greater Nashville, TN | Registered: May 11, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I swear I had
something for this
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Another idea that doesn't cost an arm or ACOG is a Primary Arms SLX prism optic. You get a small scope with nice magnification and a surprisingly large eyebox.
 
Posts: 4079 | Location: Kansas City, MO | Registered: May 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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