quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Banana

Chevrolet

Toothpaste

Running shoes

Moon

Is that a banana in your Chevy, or is your toothpaste just happily running to see the moon?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Banana

Chevrolet

Toothpaste

Running shoes

Moon

Is that a banana in your Chevy, or is your toothpaste just happily running to see the moon?

Can I mombo dog face to the banana patch?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
There is no difference, PSA uses all the same parts as a top tier manufacturer and you only spent $450.

<sarcasm, ducks>

Honestly, my list.

BCM
Colt
DD
KAC
LMT

Battlefield Las Vegas uses PSA uppers and BCG's on full auto lowers. They have stated that the failure rate with PSA parts is the same as DD and LMT. Colt is still the best.

What is BFV accuracy standards? Accurate out to 20 feet with a red dot sight and no keyholing.

Durability / reliability is an important part of the equation, but it's not the only part.

Colt
LMT
Knights Armament
BCM
Daniel Defense

Not in order

Lower tier that will absolutely work fine if you build it yourself and have the ability to QC your own work:

PSA parts on whatever forged lower.


Mid tier:

Colt, BCM, DD.


Top Tier:

Knights Armament, JP.


It really depends on your criteria. If ultimate accuracy is your goal you can scratch most of those off the list and start over with names like Krieger, Bartlein, etc....

Another thing to remember that a lot of people get hung up on is that the rollmark doesn't mean much.

A properly made upper and lower is not a feat of epic craftsmanship, in the days of CNC machines.

An excellent barrel with a properly headspaced bolt, free floated and fed good ammo, will deliver accuracy whether the aluminum bits are fancy or not.

Palmetto guts:




JP guts:




LaRue + JP guts in a Mega monolithic upper:





I am comfortable doing my own QC and T&E.


I do have one Colt. It's nice too.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
What is BFV accuracy standards? Accurate out to 20 feet with a red dot sight and no keyholing.

Durability / reliability is an important part of the equation, but it's not the only part.

The BLV standard is no key holing at 20' for safety reasons. They shoot everything to failure and don't replace parts on schedule the way a the military or an LEO agency would. They also appear to do most of their shooting in the full auto mode, and that shortens barrel life due to heating and throat erosion.It would be nice if they did some 50 or 100 yard accuracy testing, but that data just isn't anything they need to know.

My experience is a rifle will maintain field grade accuracy (minute of man) if the rounds aren't key holing into the target. Given the BLV is using Colt factory rifles and PSA uppers with FN barrels I would expect both those setups to deliver acceptable mil spec accuracy, which is 3" at 100 meters. I've had the opportunity to see thousands of Colt and FN barreled rifles go through zeroing\qualification\competition, as well as more than enough civilian AR-15 chrome lined barrels going through the same motions to have an idea of how an in spec barrel from a quality manufacturer is going to group.

In ranking I'm only discussing mil spec chrome lined barrels, not boutique barrels with exoctic coatings or mystery treatments. With that being said I would rate my top five commercial AR's as:

BCM
Colt
FN
DD
LWRC\LMT

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
Another thing to remember that a lot of people get hung up on is that the rollmark doesn't mean much.

A properly made upper and lower is not a feat of epic craftsmanship, in the days of CNC machines.

An excellent barrel with a properly headspaced bolt, free floated and fed good ammo, will deliver accuracy whether the aluminum bits are fancy or not.

This pretty much sums it up. I didn't include PSA in my top five but their upper on a functioning lower will be better than good enough.

BCM
DD
Colt
LMT
Larue


The end.

Nothing personal but I don't see how BCM even gets on the bus.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Nothing personal but I don't see how BCM even gets on the bus.

Filthy 14.

What Indiana Boy said++++++++

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Nothing personal but I don't see how BCM even gets on the bus.

I say the same about Colt. Perhaps at one time they were the end all but people are doing it better now. The last few I had my hands on were pretty rough. They may have ran well enough but overall fit and finish were lacking. On the upside, now that they are 800 instead of 1k+, their value has has increased.

I'll also agree with Indiana boy, I've said it before, at some point parts quality maxes out and you're now paying for qc and the service level provided by the mfg. I have several home builds that id put up against any top tier maker. The parts were checked and everything was fitted properly and checked again. What makes a top tier rifle, top tier? Top notch parts and quality control, might as well throw in consistency too. Making parts in house should theoretically improve quality but ultimately it comes down to checking parts for spec, whether made in house or outsourced.

I really appreciate all the thoughtful replies.

There are some bits of information about properly assembling an AR-15 that is make-or-break on winding up with a rifle that is of utmost reliability.


Common mistakes:

Hammer spring installed backwards.

Barrel not properly torqued.

Gas block misaligned. This one is a huge and common culprit of guns that won't run. Many people are not aware that gas journals and gas blocks are commonly cut to allow room for the stamped hanguard retaining piece that fits behind the gas block. If you butt your gas block up against the rear of the gas journal, you may have partially obstructed the entrance into the gas block.

Similarly, many are misaligned axially. There was a well known gun reviewer on Youtube who caused a HUGE shitstorm because he kept swapping an aftermarket gas block onto a factory LaRue rifle, and getting it misaligned, and accusing them of building a gun that wouldn't run. He sent it back to them, they fixed it, and he did the SAME thing a second time.

Taper pinned front sight bases are the most secure. I have never had a clamping type or set screw gas block move after installation. I much prefer clamping type blocks to set screw type blocks. Much prefer.


If you buy a barrel that is ported for real M193 (which is loaded quite hot), and you feed it underpowered steel case ammo, you will likely have cycling issues just because of the gas port size. Many commercial rifles are ported for cheaper ammo, because they KNOW people are going to feed it to their guns, and people will bitch if a gun doesn't eat cheap ammo. So now you may be overgassed if you shoot full power M193.

Sidenote: Lake City M193 is the only factory ammo that I have ever seen blow a primer, even with the crimping. And that gun was LOCKED up. Primer wound up in the cam pin channel.


A misaligned gas block will result in a misaligned gas tube. This drags on your gas tube where it interfaces with the gas key, and can cause failure to return to battery.


There is debate on whether or not the level of torque applied to a muzzle device can affect accuracy. Something to consider. It does NOT need to be gorilla-on-a-cheater-bar tight.



There are all kinds of ways to fine tune (or screw up) a rifle nowadays. Various buffers of differing weight. Various springs of differing rate. Variation in ammo quality, power and consistency. Etc, et al, ad nauseum....


You aren't going to know what you have until you put enough rounds through it test it while it is smoking hot from a few hundred rounds, and filthy from a lot of shooting.

I USED to think my rifles got dirty, until I bought a silencer. Now THAT will shift your perceptions of what 'dirty' means regarding a firearm, and open your eyes to how full of crap it can be and still work just fine.

quote:

I USED to think my rifles got dirty, until I bought a silencer. Now THAT will shift your perceptions of what 'dirty' means regarding a firearm, and open your eyes to how full of crap it can be and still work just fine.

Truth!

Thanks again for all the responses. I also found a similar thread over on AR15.com with the same question. Most of the responses mirrored these.

Anyway, I settled on a Daniel Defense M4V5 my FFL had on the shelf. It was more than I had initially intended to spend, but there you go.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SIGWolf,

Great choice.

Great stick. Well done, you wont be disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Banana

Chevrolet

Toothpaste

Running shoes

Moon

Ready to comply.

Mission Report, December 16, 1991