we have discussed this before -- got this update promo email today.

gotta hand it to Sig. They are shooting for the stars.

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https://www.sigsauer.com/press...il&utm_source=Eloqua


SIG SAUER Delivers Next Generation Squad Weapons to U.S. Army
Published Date: 06/01/2020

NEWINGTON, N.H., (June 1, 2020) – SIG SAUER, Inc. is proud to announce the recent delivery of the Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) system to the U.S. Army, consisting of lightweight high-performance 6.8mm hybrid ammunition, NGSW-AR lightweight machine guns, NGSW-R rifles, and suppressors.

“The SIG SAUER Next Generation Squad Weapons system is the only submission entirely designed, engineered and manufactured by a single American company. We are proud to deliver this comprehensive solution to the U.S. Army, with new capabilities to enhance mission effectiveness for our soldiers on the battlefield,” began Ron Cohen, President & CEO SIG SAUER, Inc. “Our ammunition, machine gun, rifle, and suppressors far surpass the performance of the legacy weapons system in range and lethality, offer exponentially better maneuverability, and are significantly lighter in weight.”

The features and benefits of the complete SIG SAUER Next-Generation Weapons Systems are:

SIG SAUER 6.8mm Hybrid Ammunition: designed to enhance mission effectiveness, this high-pressure, compact round combines a significant reduction in weight, with the ability to handle higher pressures resulting in increased velocity and greater penetration. Additionally, based on the cartridge design and the traditional manufacturing processes, the growth potential of the SIG 6.8mm ammunition is exponential.

SIG SAUER Lightweight Machine Gun (NGSW-AR): with an emphasis on significant reductions in soldier load and enhanced combat performance, SIG SAUER designed the NGSW-AR to be 40% lighter than current systems, and dramatically reduce felt recoil while maintaining traditional belt-fed operation to increase downrange capability. The MG 6.8mm machine gun features ambidextrous AR-style ergonomics, quick detach magazines, increased M1913 rail space, quick detach suppressor, and vastly improves upon the operation and function of the legacy M249.

SIG SAUER Rifle (NGSW-R): a lightweight rifle built on the foundation of the SIG SAUER weapons in service with the premier fighting forces across the globe combined with the added firepower of the 6.8mm round. Features include a fully collapsible and folding stock, rear and side charging handle, free-floating reinforced M-LOK™ handguard, fully ambidextrous controls, and quick-detach suppressor.

SIG SAUER Next Generation Suppressors: designed to reduce harmful backflow and signature that feature low flash with a quick detach design.

“I am very proud that every component of the SIG SAUER Next Generation Squad Weapons system was manufactured at our SIG SAUER facilities in New Hampshire and Arkansas and is entirely American made. Our engineers have worked in concert to optimize the system, ensuring that every component is synchronized, and our soldiers are equipped for the demands of the modern battlefield,” added Cohen. “Additionally, I would be remiss if I did not recognize the hard work and dedication of the entire team who worked tirelessly in these unprecedented times, in the face of a pandemic, to deliver the SIG SAUER NGSW system to the U.S. Army.”

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Gen 2 should be out in a few months

And two (?) other contenders are going to be evaluated as well. Still, really looking forward to hearing anything that leaks out about performance and wear as far as the rifle and ammo go. I'm also kinda curious to see how this dual charging handle option thing turns out.

Always liked the 6.8, very flat shooting in our opinion, and recoil is very decent. Will be interesting to see how this goes.

So, does this mean the 6.8 will be hugely popular with the civi shooters now, and the 5.56 will eventually fade into oblivion?

Yeah, just like 5.56x45 made 7.62x51 fade away...

I could see an spr in 6.8 but not understanding a saw in 6.8

Here we go....again. For a few years now, the military has stated the future 6.8 chambering will NOT be the Remington 6.8 SPC II. It will be a more energetic round, designed for a platform larger than an AR15.

IIRC about 6 months ago, Sig announced their proposed 6.8 Fury Hybrid cartridge, to be used in a rifle that looks pretty close to the Fix rifle by Q. Sig's version of the 6.8 bore uses a case about the same size as the 308 Win, but with both steel and brass in the case. Sig plans to use a very energetic powder, with the idea of getting long-barrel 270 Win performance from a 16" Fury barrel. With a longer barrel, the Sig Fury 277 may produce muzzle energies comparable with a 270 WSM. Again, from a case about the size of a 308 Win.

I bet a similar "6.8 SPC II will be the new Army ammo" discussion will occur in another couple of months.

I think the 277 Fury looks very interesting, but physics is still physics. Word is the Fury is pushing a 140 gr bullet at 3,000 fps form a 16" barrel! That is awesome!

To make this happen, they are operating at a pressure of 80,000 psi which is really big. 28 Nosler is a pretty sweet round and that's only operating at 65,000 psi. 6.5 Creedmore is around 62-63,000 psi.

80k psi is monstrous. To handle that pressure the gun will likely need to be fairly heavy? No? I'll be curious to see. Also, I'm curious to see how it recoils. But dang, 140 gr round moving at 3k fps is no joke! If I toss SAAMI out the window and really push my 6.5 CM's I can get them to sniff 3k fps with a 140 gr bullet, but I'm using a 28" barrel and I'm not conformable at all with how close to the edge I am. Also, I've noticed accuracy suffers.

Sig also says the barrel life is better than we think, but I haven't seen them publish a number yet. 28 Nosler will chew up a barrel in 1k rounds out of a bolt gun. I can't imagine what this will do to the barrel of a fighting rifle. Gonna have to carry spare mags and spare barrels when going out on a mission.

Long story short, what they've created is pretty sweet on paper ballistically speaking, but I'm curious to see how the size and weight of the gun compare to currently available option and how it recoils. But man would I love to get my hands on a bolt gun chambered in this and play around....assuming I don't have to pay for the new barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Yeah, just like 5.56x45 made 7.62x51 fade away...

yep. Wait the 6.5 creedmore made the 7.62x51 go away didn’t it?

SA has m1a in 6.5 creedmore should look to see if Fulton Armory has one.

For the usual reasons, the Army went about this in a strange manner. Somehow they determined that their 6.8 bullet is "ideal" even though it has a lousy ballistic coefficient, and needs to go 3000 fps from a 16" barrel to get the terminal performance they want. Garand favored the .270 for the M1 and the Army insisted it had to be .30 caliber, but 80+ years later, here it is.

"Here's a bullet, make me a cartridge and rifle to go with it." That's the right way to develop small arms?

I've seen a lot of discussion about this from people that know a lot more about ballistics than I do, saying that a lighter weight 6.5 mm long-for-caliber bullet with a much better B.C. would retain more velocity and thus have better terminal performance against body armor at long range without needing such high pressure to launch it fast enough out of a short barrel to compensate for the velocity loss.

That said, the hybrid case is a nice innovation that will allow higher pressures from a given case size without having to thicken the brass and made the case bigger.

Personally, the new 6mm ARC with 100-110 grain bullets that have a similar B.C. to the 6.5 Creedmoor, and fits a standard AR action with only a barrel/bolt/mag change is more compelling.

quote:

he Army insisted it had to be .30 caliber,

Didn't McArthur insist it had to be a .30-'06 because the US had so much of that ammo in stock? Seems potentially bass-ackward to me, but that was the story that was floating around at one point.

As for ballistic coefficients, my WAG is that once you decide on a 6.8 bullet (of any appreciable weight) at 3,000 fps from a 16" barrel you've pretty much decided on a brute force approach anyway.

And as for something like the 6mm ARC, wouldn't that be an incremental improvement at best? The military seems eager to step into a whole different class.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

he Army insisted it had to be .30 caliber,

Didn't McArthur insist it had to be a .30-'06 because the US had so much of that ammo in stock? Seems potentially bass-ackward to me, but that was the story that was floating around at one point.

As for ballistic coefficients, my WAG is that once you decide on a 6.8 bullet (of any appreciable weight) at 3,000 fps from a 16" barrel you've pretty much decided on a brute force approach anyway.

And as for something like the 6mm ARC, wouldn't that be an incremental improvement at best? The military seems eager to step into a whole different class.

Sticking with the .30-'06 due to ammo inventory made sense in the 1930's, but once WWII broke out I would think we burned through that pretty quick and made a shit ton more. It wasn't a terrible decision, because almost every small arm in inventory was already chambered for it.

But when the need for an intermediate cartridge after WWII was clear, it was silly to move to the almost identical .308 Win when they could have changed to the .270 instead.

The ARC provides long range accuracy and terminal ballistics much better than the 5.56 because it is heavier and stays supersonic past 1000 yards so there is no transonic buffeting that affects accuracy. It's incremental yes, but could be the ideal DMR round to balance its advantages against recoil, weight of the rifle and ammo, and carrying capacity of ammo.

All of this comes from the Army's idea that they have to "overmatch" or provide superiority in range and lethality to anything the enemy may be shooting, and penetrate an advanced opponent's body armor at long range. So once again, they are planning to fight the Russians (or maybe Chinese) and think that infantry firing small arms accurately at long range is an effective battle tactic.

Maybe I'm misguided, but I really don't think a shooting war with another nuclear power is going to be decided by small arms.