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Now and Zen
Picture of clubleaf206
posted
For those of you using a VFG on their AR, where do you like it to be positioned? In the middle? All the way to the rear? All the way to the front?


___________________________________________________________________________
"....imitate the action of the Tiger."
 
Posts: 11969 | Location: The untamed wilds of Kansas | Registered: August 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
posted Hide Post
Between the middle and the front. I use it as a hand stop because I'm too cheap to replace all my VFGs.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 7574 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
I prefer my support arm to be nearly straight with my support hand as far forward as possible, so I position my vertical grips forward on the rifle, just behind where my hand naturally falls at near-full extension while in my shooting stance. Like so:




But importantly, I do not utilize a VFG by wrapping my hand around it like a beer can... Instead, it basically functions like a slightly beefier hand stop. (Therefore, I prefer short, stubby VFGs, like the BCM Mod 3s seen above.)

I use the VFG against the lower part of my support hand, while using a C Clamp grip. This allows me better muzzle control as well as extra leverage to drive the stock into my shoulder. Like this:


This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,
 
Posts: 29634 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of dwd1985
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While it is certainly true that civilian equipment is superior to whatever the military purchases, the same is not true of tactics. The C clamp grip is an internet tacticool fad. You can watch thousands of videos of US SOF operating both in training and the real world and you will never see one use the C grip. Those that do us a broom handle grip (they have fallen out of favor, for the most part) use them about the middle of the handguard, usually inching closer to the "rear".

tl;dr: You want to be tacticool and shoot paper you can use a VFG to help with your C-clamp. You want to actually use your weapon effectively in anything that isn't a static range, you use it as its designed in a place that's comfortable for you.

https://sofrep.com/gear/exagge...clamp-grip-hype-not/
 
Posts: 4314 | Registered: October 28, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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DWD1985 - Thanks for sharing this detail and the link. I learned a lot from the contents of this thread and tour post.

Diverting a little but still on this topic - I shoot Steel Challenge at the local and state level and go and watch the top shooters at the World events. What I find interesting is that a LOT of shooters use this C-Grip (thumb over the barrel) on their PPC AR’s as well as their Rimfire 22 rifles.

This makes me wonder if they are in fact slowing their shooting capabilities by using this style grip because Steel Challenge is all about multiple target transitions under a timed process….
 
Posts: 2844 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I have arthritis in both my elbows so I can't comfortably come to lock.
So I set my VFG accordingly.
Works quite well.
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: January 07, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
posted Hide Post
On my 20" ARs the VFGs and AFG are in the spare parts bin.

On my M4A1 and Mk18ish uppers, I use a short VFG as an index point.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24636 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dwd1985:
US SOF operating both in training and the real world and you will never see one use the C grip.


That may have been true a couple of decades ago, but it is certainly false these days. A simple google search “special+forces+urgi” brings dozens of returns from just about all Army Special Forces groups shooting the new URGI equipped rifles.... with a C Clamp. Having trained with NSW recently, they use it as well. And my son is active duty Marines. Yep, they teach it too. It simply gives you better control when shooting at speed. I haven’t seen anyone that can shoot in .mil or .gov SOF use the old NSW broom stick thing in a dozen years. If the don’t use the c clamp, the use a modified with the VFG as a hand stop leaving the thumb parallel to the bore instead of on top of it.

I can’t believe this is even a thing or internet controversial in 2022, but perhaps someone needs to tell JSOC that this is a tacticool fad.

Hell, all you have to do is follow the official JSOC Instagram page (or the official subordinate commands) and the untrained observer can tell the above article is garbage. A quick look at 5th SFG Instagram shows multiple photos as recent as April 20th of this year with....you guessed it. Those Green Berets are known to be posers lol. (I’m kidding, I shoot SOF charity matches with some 5th group guys a couple times a year for the Legion and Night Stalker matches and they are the real deal)

Here is an article on the guns of 3rd SFG with images.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...-seals-2020-10%3famp

20 years of the GWOT have taught us hard lessons and luckily we adapted with proven modern shooting techniques for SOF that the .gov counterparts have been using operationally for years.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36164 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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A soldier with 3rd Special Forces Group (Airborne) trains with an M4A1 at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center in Twentynine Palms, California, October 14, 2019.


U.S. Army 5th Special Forces Group (SFG) Soldiers watch and instruct Jordanian 101st Special Force Brigade soldiers at the Zarqu Training Area, Jordan, Nov. 9, 2021.


U.S. Army 10th SFG member during training at Ft. Carson, Colorado, March 3, 2016.


These poor mall ninjas with their tacticool C Clamp fads are goners if Al Qaeda ever rushes the food court.
 
Posts: 29634 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Web Clavin Extraordinaire
Picture of Oat_Action_Man
posted Hide Post
C-clamp also keeps your thumb near your switches to operate the doodads.


----------------------------

Chuck Norris put the laughter in "manslaughter"

Educating the youth of America, one declension at a time.
 
Posts: 19757 | Location: SE PA | Registered: January 12, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Now and Zen
Picture of clubleaf206
posted Hide Post
I found an article (unfortunately I can't seem to find it again) that mentions that the Army Research Laboratory did a study on VFGs back in 2015, the Army sent them six soldiers, the other twelve came from a local LE agency's SRT, who had had prior experience in the military using the type of rifle tested (a stock M4 carbine with the issue red dot sight). They did two courses, one CQB and one long range and found that statistically there was virtually no difference using a VFG vs not. Interestingly all of the participants felt that they had shot better with the VFG.

I ended up placing the VFG on my M4 type AR as close to the front as I could, this seems to be the most comfortable and stable way for me to use it. I also tied the c clamp grip that others in this thread mentioned, it is too painful on my shoulder to utilize effectively.


___________________________________________________________________________
"....imitate the action of the Tiger."
 
Posts: 11969 | Location: The untamed wilds of Kansas | Registered: August 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
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I put one of these on an AR pistol and I liked it so much I put another on my mane HD carbine. Very versatile on ways you can grip it and feels quite solid. I too like a far our support hand c-grip and these work great for that.

Strike industries make the ones I bought but there are a few other brands out there making similar ones.
 
Posts: 10096 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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I have old elbows and cannot come to lock. I adjusted mine to feel comfortable .
 
Posts: 274 | Registered: January 07, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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Even with my VFGs positioned forward on the rifle, they're not far enough forward that my support side elbow is locked out. It still has a partial bend to it. Similar to the various photos I posted above.
 
Posts: 29634 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Veteran of the
Psychic Wars
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To quote Bill Blowers:

"Fuck with shit..."

There is no one way to mount a VFG. Yes, one should try to mount it as far forward as comfortable; however, everyone is different and thus you need to get on the range and see what works and what does not.

Mount your stuff one way and head to the range. Do some standard drills with a shot timer and look at your results. Then, as Mr. Blowers stated, fuck with your shit: change your stock length (for those with adjustable stocks), VFG placement, weapon light position, switches, etc.

Run the drills again.

Look at the results and see quantifiable data that says that having the gear in X position is better than it was in position Y. Maybe everything is good to go as it originally was. You wont know til you get out there and experiment.

I used to run my stock only one or two clicks out from fully collapsed (I am 6' 2") and at one training course, an instructor told me to try extending the stock out. At first, I blew off this suggestion, as I had been running my rifle as such for years. Later, I decided to give it a whirl and voila! all was right with the world.


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Posts: 1269 | Location: The end of the Earth... | Registered: March 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I prefer my support arm to be nearly straight with my support hand as far forward as possible, so I position my vertical grips forward on the rifle, just behind where my hand naturally falls at near-full extension while in my shooting stance. Like so:




But importantly, I do not utilize a VFG by wrapping my hand around it like a beer can... Instead, it basically functions like a slightly beefier hand stop. (Therefore, I prefer short, stubby VFGs, like the BCM Mod 3s seen above.)

I use the VFG against the lower part of my support hand, while using a C Clamp grip. This allows me better muzzle control as well as extra leverage to drive the stock into my shoulder. Like this:




Last pic is how I mount my VFG. I use it as more of a hand stop/barricade stop/and for its original intent; when I have a whole bunch of crap on a short rail.
 
Posts: 804 | Location: NE Pennsylvania | Registered: December 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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https://www.soc.mil/

Interesting, I was on SOCOMs website today and when you click on the army’s special operations command page, it loads a page that in the upper left hand corner shows an operator shooting a carbine with a C clamp.

Funny how that’s never used “for real”, but seems to be prominent in their doctrine.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36164 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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Apparently, SOCOM didn't get the memo that it's just an internet fad. Someone should tell them. Perhaps a strongly-worded Tweet would set them straight?
 
Posts: 29634 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Now and Zen
Picture of clubleaf206
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Interesting that this thread came back up, I just today decided that I don’t like the VFG on my AR and I removed it. At first I thought it was the way to go, I just never got completely comfortable with it.


___________________________________________________________________________
"....imitate the action of the Tiger."
 
Posts: 11969 | Location: The untamed wilds of Kansas | Registered: August 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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That's fair. It partly has to do with the way your wrist is wired.

Some folks find having their hand flat against the tubular handguard, thus putting their wrist at a steeper angle, works well for them.

Personally, I prefer my hand to sit at more of a angle to the handguard, with the wrist closer to neutral, a position that I find to be better for my wrists. That's why the "2.5 fingers on the vertical grip as a hand stop" position works for me.


(Similarly, some folks don't mind the standard AR grip angle, even when squared up to the target or using a shorter stock. Others, like myself, find a more vertical grip angle to work better for their wrists.)
 
Posts: 29634 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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