The link has a photo.

https://www.armytimes.com/news...ting-top-commanders/

The Army picked this sub gun for security details to use while protecting top commanders and leaders

By Todd South 5 hours ago

The Army has selected the sub compact weapon it will arm its security soldiers with and it wasn’t one of the big companies that have grabbed other recent weapons contracts.

Brugger and Thomet, USA won the competition over Sig Sauer and four other companies that had been vying for the job. Their APC9K was the winner, according to an update on fbo.gov, a government business website.

The small submachine gun is chambered in 9mm and variants of the weapon are in use with police units such as Special Weapons and Tactics, or SWAT teams.

The gun can fire in both semi- and full-automatic modes, has a collapsible stock and rail system for accessories such as aiming lights and lasers.

The Army sought a concealable weapon for personal security details that protect high risk personnel such as the secretary of the Army, chief of staff or senior commanders. The aim was to go beyond the pistol and to allow security staff to engage threats “with a high volume of lethal force while accurately firing at close range with minimal collateral damage,” according to the website.

Sig Sauer, winner of the contract to produce the Modular Handgun System for all four services, along with Angstadt Arms, Global Ordnance, Shield Arms and Trident Rifles, competed for the contract.

B&T will manufacture 350 guns and accessories such as spare parts, slings and manuals. The Army has the option to purchase up to 1,000 under the terms of the contract, which is valued at more than $2.5 million.

The Army announced the request in May 2018. Ten companies provided their options. Weapons ranged from M4-style carbines to modern versions of the Heckler & Koch MP5 sub gun design.

The original posting was pulled to adjust the requirements. And gun makers had to submit a weapon that was optimized to fire 147-grain 9mm and include both 20- and 30-round magazine options.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sigmund,

Thanks for that.
A far cry from when I was carrying a Smith & Wesson 2" model 10 and 18 rounds of 38 Special loaded with 130 grain FMJ bullets on those details.

I was excited to hear that. I love my APC.

Wonder why they didn’t go with the MP7.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Wonder why they didn’t go with the MP7.

The requirement was for a 9mm weapon. The MP7 uses a proprietary 4.6x30mm round.

Besides, the 4.6×30mm cartridge was designed primarily to defeat body armor, and its terminal ballistics are not that great. It is similar to a hopped-up .17 HMR, but made to be fired out of shorter barrels. Basically a very small and fast projectile designed strictly for penetration. It's a better option against armored threats than 9mm, but 9mm is more effective against unarmored threats.

Like the FN P90/5.7, it was part of the late Cold War push to develop a NATO PDW to give support troops the capability to counter Soviet body armor.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Wonder why they didn’t go with the MP7.

I would imagine the proprietary round and price of the MP7 kept it from being a viable contender.

Based on past examples, the military forces are far more likely to adopt a new firearm than a new cartridge.
And as a side note, if defeating soft body armor were that important with a weapon like this, then someone could resurrect the KTW bullet or something similar.

Defeating hard armor, including the inexpensive, readily-available steel stuff, isn’t going to happen with any handgun cartridge suitable for use in a weapon of the type being discussed.

Wouldn’t vip escort want to have some AP ability? Especially amongst foreign military? Also it’s already in use in limited quantity by US forces.

AP isn't that important to VIP security due to the scope of work.

As VIP, immediate security is (usually) to get to extract, not to neutralize the threat. Multiple hits of 9mm on hard armor should distract the threat allowing for the VIP to run for cover. Your react team would be the neutralizing force with AP rifle rounds.

Think of secret service we see in DC. The inner ring will have concealable weapons, while you have rifles inside the trucks, and over-watch above. Each level has their job. This is really no different, just on a smaller scale.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Wonder why they didn’t go with the MP7.

Saw my first MP7 in front of 10 Downing St last fall, London Metro Police guarding the prime minister. At the back gate (far less tourists) two real friendly guys were carrying G-17s, one had an HK G-36, the other an MP5. Both had two shot Tasers. 9mm ammo was Federal JHPs.

Edited to amend nomenclature from HK25 to HK G-36.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sigmund,

MP7, P90, and all “PDW” calibers are very niche and not appropriate for general issue. They were designed to punch soft armor, which they do. But their terminal ballistics suck and rely upon punching many holes to stop a threat. Secret Service and a LE agency in Jacksonville, FL were among the largest users of the p90. Both dropped the p90 after seeing poor terminal ballistics.


https://pistol-forum.com/showt...-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm

Basically identical to the experience of one of our local agencies, who got P90s for their ERT team about 20ish years ago. They were reportedly fun to shoot and very controllable, but they dumped them within a short period due to poor effectiveness.

Whereas 9mm MP5s are still being used by several local agencies.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
one had an HK-25

No such thing. The HK25 was a proposed heavy machinegun variant of the HK21 LMG, which was to be chambered in .50 BMG. But the idea was scrapped before any prototypes were produced.



Here's a HK21 LMG. The HK25 would have been even larger, and in .50 cal instead of 7.62 NATO.

Rogue, you've got mail.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
Rogue, you've got mail.

Based on the photo you emailed me, the "HK 25" in use by that London officer is a HK G36C.



Like these other Metro Police Officers:

Army’s New 9mm Submachine Guns Are Ready To Help Protect VIPs

The Army says it has gotten its full order of APC9K submachine guns and fielded them to protective security details.

BY JOSEPH TREVITHICK
AUG 22, 2022 1:43 PM

The U.S. Army says it has completed fielding 315 new Swiss-designed 9x19mm APC9K submachine guns and has no plans to purchase any more. The service first announced that it was buying these guns, also referred to as Sub Compact Weapons, or SCWs, in 2019 as a new weapon to arm its protective security details.

The Army first announced that it had awarded the SCW contract to Swiss gunmaker B&T's U.S.-based subsidiary on March 29, 2019. That deal, valued at the time at more than $2.5 million, included provisions for an initial batch of up to 350 guns and options for purchases of as many as 1,000 in total. In 2020, the U.S. Air Force also announced it would acquire 65 APC9Ks by piggy-backing on the Army's contract...

Complete article with several photos:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-w...to-help-protect-vips

I wonder if buying those had anything to do with the Sig P320 and it's compatibility/mag. usage or do they carry something different for a pistol? It's seems like a win-win if they are mag. compatible/using the same platform but this is the government we are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by patw:
I wonder if buying those had anything to do with the Sig P320 and it's compatibility/mag. usage or do they carry something different for a pistol? It's seems like a win-win if they are mag. compatible/using the same platform but this is the government we are talking about.

They are using standard B&T plastic stick mags, not P320 mags. Because it's the Army. Now that 30-round P320 mags are readily available, you think they would change over, but again, it's the Army. My house guns are an M17 and an M18. I'd like a P320 Mag APC9K for compatibility.

That said, for a sub gun, double feed mags are a lot better to load than single feed, so the standard B&T mag is not a bad idea, but they've had breakage issues, so Magpul needs to start making their own version...