Or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Carbine"

Well, now that I have that out of my system, I can request some help. In the recent past I started taking my kids (teens) to advanced pistol training. We're having a fantastic time, great fun, great instructor, incredibly educational...I could go on and on.

That being stated, the same instructor offers a carbine rifle class. I know nothing about the AR15 type platform. Literally nothing. I want to outfit the 4 of us for taking these courses. Given the significant drop in prices of these rifles, ammo availability,etc. I need to learn.

We're not operators operating operationally, we're an OFG and 3 teens. Cost is an issue. What would the Sigforum minds recommend for low cost rifles to serve for a family shooting for fun? Additionally, what else would you recommend I pick up?

To reiterate, I have no knowledge in this arena. Multi thousand dollar platforms are out of the question, I need 4 rifles and 4 full sets of gear, the costs add up fast. I'm in no hurry to purchase. Thank in advance, I really do appreciate any shared wisdom.

Here's my answer to you:

"How much money do you want to invest in a mistake?"

I'm not be facetious.

4x people = 4x different rifles. And right now, none of you have any experience, so the chances that you will get exactly what you want/need your first time at the LGS is like taking four shots in the dark at four different targets 1000 yards away and scoring 4 X-ring hits.

So let me suggest to you what I would do, given your situation, but also what I know now.

First, get one basic carbine. Lots of options right now. This will allow you to spend more money on a single gun and get more nice-to-haves. I'm not suggesting that you get a $1600 carbine, but more mid-range, something with at last a free float forearm. Get this one rifle kitted out with a decent red-dot if you plan on 200 yards or closer, or a variable power optic like the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x for further out.

Next, get a S&W M&P 15-22. Yes, a .22 LR and a few magazines. Why is this? You will always be able to shoot the .22, even on indoor "pistol" only ranges, it's cheap, and light. And you will still be shooting it after your 10th centerfire AR is done. Get the S&W because it will keep your manual of arms the same.

Now, take both rifles to class, but only send two students to class at a time. Everyone gets some time on the 5.56, and some on the .22 lr. At 50 yards, it won't really make much of a difference at short ranges. I shoot my .22 at 75 yards at big plates. Your instructor should be tolerant of your budget. The .22 won't reach out to 300 yards, but for everything else, it will give you similar effect for less money.

Here's the thing: After class, each of the four of you will develop preferences and ways you'll want to modify your gun. At the point when you know, you'll only have invested in a single 5.56 rifle rather than 4 different rifles. And, like I said, everyone will still shoot the .22, no matter whether they end up with an SBR or 24" varmint gun as their favorite 5.56.

Alternative solution: Stick with the one rifle that you buy, but see if your instructor can loan you three other rifles for the class. Most AR owners have more than a single AR.

While there is sound advice above, keep in mind at the moment the AR market is really soft. Buying four basic say S&W M&P sport rifles or Ruger AR's or any of the other basic rifles will cost only a couple grand right now and will get the job done just fine. Don't get mired in all the fuss about mil spec chrome lining gas system length etc. a basic carbine and three magazines is all you need to get through a carbine course. Fancy load bearing gear, optics lasers and fancy attachments are often more in the way and weigh you down as opposed to providing real value. I managed quite well in Iraq with an iron sighted M16A4 and in Afghanistan kept my carbine to the minimum with the only added item an aim point red dot. Optics are a good idea down the road but don't buy that you can't be effective in a class without one. Most people in classes are more than willing to let you try out gear or run a drill with their rifle to get an idea of what you like

A 10/22 or authorized .22 AR and go to an appleseed shoot or 4.

That teach you the basics and give you a foundation that you can grow on.

Contact the instructor and see if there are loaner rifles available. if there aren't, look for an intro to ARs class where a rifle isn't required. Failing that, borrow one from a friend, you'll find that a lot of AR aficionados have more ARs than they do hands.

I wouldn't drop money on an AR until you are better educated. You can spend a lot of money on AR stuff yet get very little value in return.

I like guardians idea about a 10/22 and Appleseed, low cost, high educational payoff.

How much are you willing to spend?
You can get decent AR's out there for $700, from there, the sky is the limit....
You can doll out $2,000 and not think twice for a gun. THEN you get into optics, accessories...


I wouldn't go with LDD's "How much money do you want to invest in a mistake?"
It seems like it's Family bonding time, and everyone is having fun with it. You're having fun, spending time with each other, I can't classify that as a mistake. Everything else he said is true!

HOWEVER--- This hobby can get real expensive, real quick!


There's a ton of good manufactures out there; Bravo Co, Colt, Ruger, S&W, DPMS, Aero Precision, Palmetto State, DS Arms, Rock River... The AR platform is EASY to figure out and play with! You could honestly be "drooling on yourself stupid" and still disassemble, clean, assemble, load and accurately shoot one. Even with iron sights. Don't be intimidated by the "Evil Black Rifle"!

I'd recommend one chambered in a 5.56 NATO.
Simply put: 5.56mm is the military round, it has a little more "oomph" than the civilian .223 cal round. You can shoot a .223 round thru a 5.56 rifle all day long. You CANT do a 5.56 in a .223!
There's about 40 different calibers you can get for an AR style gun. Anything from a .17 all the way to a .50cal. Keep it simple and stick with a 5.56 for a beginner gun.

For a beginner on a budget, stick with "Gas Operated" or Direct Impingement versus a "Piston" operated gun. Nothing wrong with a piston operated gun, but they are more $$$.

M-4 style feed ramps: this is an upgrade from older AR's and allows more reliable feeding of rounds into the chamber.
Good sights! Start out with *GOOD* iron sights! Move up from there! Later on, if you really start to get into it, you can get a red-dot, ACOG, or variable power scope.

For a beginner gun, you really don't NEED rails / M-Lock / Key-Mod uppers. Yes, they look nice, functional, you can attach the hell out of some stuff to them, but the standard A-2 style fore-end will suit your needs for now. Again, rails/m-lock/key-mod = more $.

Ammo, parts, accessories? About eleventy-bazillion out there right now. 5.56 rounds you can get for (+/-) $.35 to .40 a round. Reliable magazines, $15-20 a piece.
Again, there's a LOT of companies out there making stuff for the AR's. Anything from crap I wouldn't pawn off on Somali Pirates to "Jesus himself made this!" Ask around here on the Sig Forum, we'll point you in the right direction, and tell you what to stay away from. Hell, a good sling alone can easily cost $50-$75.

You're going to hear the term Mil-Spec a lot.
Ok, Mil-Spec is just that. A "Specification", a "benchmark"... It's what the Military uses as standard in what they require for their rifles. There is SOOOO MUCH more out there that is better than Mil-Spec. But there is also worse.

Company reliability is big! ***IF*** (and heaven forbid, but it does occasionally happen) you get a bad rifle, will the company stand by it's product? Or will they give you the run-around? A buddy of mine has a Daniel Defense, GREAT GUN and a GREAT COMPANY! He got one with problems. Gas Key wasn't staked properly. Not a major mistake, and it happens when you're turning out hundreds of guns a year. But it's a large enough problem for his gun not to work. Once we diagnosed the problem, he called Daniel Defense. a 20 minute phone call, a few bucks for shipping the bolt & BCG back to the company, within the week he received a new bolt, another BCG (now has 2), some gas rings, another extractor, and a check for the original shipping cost. Can't beat service like that!!!


Things can & will get confusing for a beginner in this game. You can quickly burn thru $$$ real quick! Some money might be well spent, some not. Look at it this way: YOU GOT US! The brain-trust of the Sig Forum!!!
We're not going to spend your money for you, but you WILL get a ton of education and experience from some pretty smart people here. Builders, shooters of all disciplines, instructors, people in the industry, salesmen (and saleswomen! -MissisippiGal!). Everyone that's going to chime in pretty much know what they are doing.


You can get a 5.56 rifle now, and pick up a .22cal conversion later on down the line.

Shoot a few different AR's... see what you like.

Get one, and go from there. Have your kids go thru a basic course one at a time, depending on the $ situation
Can you get TWO? and two of you attend the class, then the other two. (I understand it's a Family thing, but 2 guns is half as expensive as 4)

Id hit the Palmetto State Armory website. Grab 4 Premium complete uppers, 4 stripped lowers, 4 premium lower build kits and build your own. That should be in the 2k range. PRices are cheap right now, they will only go up as competion and surplus inventory dry up.

The other option is the Ruger or S&W M&P Sport II, probalby the best of the "budget" AR's. Will be slight more than building your own but you'll have factory support should you need it. On th eother hand, if you build your own and learn how the rifle works, the only factory support you need is you.

+1 to LDD's advice.

Every. Single. Word.

Didn't the S&W M&P 15-.22 get banned at Appleseed events? Did they ever resolve the issue?

I only ask, because the 15-22 has been recommended to the op.

All the advice in this thread is valid. That said I'd be a little less concerned about making a mistake as long as you're buying a basic AR carbine or rifle from a well-regarded manufacturer. The AR is a platform that allows LOTS of customization of the basic platform. Customizing is ultimately a more expensive approach, but the cost is spread out over more time. Plus, very few owners of AR rifles have just a single AR. In all likelihood you'll buy more ARs down the road.

I also appreciate the fun of doing a group buy. In the past I have purchased duplicate firearms so that I and a family member can have the same gun. Plus the same gear makes competing with a family member more fun as it largely eliminates equipment-related excuses.

If you're committed to jumping into the deep end and buying 4 of the same rifle I would differ from some of the other posters by suggesting it have a flat top, a free-floating handguard (or "rail"), and a low profile gas block (no fixed front sight). The flat top, rail, and low profile gas block allows the addition of lots of different accessories and optics, and none of these features are easily/cheaply added later.

Basically I'd buy this rifle from Palmetto State Armory ($499!):

AR rifle at PSA

For a carbine I'd buy something like this one, again from Palmetto (currently out of stock, but you get the idea):

PSA carbine

To assemble a carbine from a complete upper and a complete lower get these two items:

PSA complete carbine upper $299

PSA complete carbine lower $149

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TooTech,

If you decide to go with four ARs, it would be hard to beat this deal from PSA, as well as those listed above.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...earth-516445846.html

The link provided is a long read, but will provide you with more informaton than you wanted to know about the AR15.

https://forum.officer.com/foru...-to-buy-an-ar-15-huh

Also a Palmetto fan; this one is a good consideration- for a first gun, I'm a believer in starting with open sights before moving to optics. A decent quality rear flip up would make this deal complete.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...earth-516445846.html

My AR-22 is one of my favorite rifles. However it is not plastic, it is the real thing. I think LDD is correct, buy one AR-16 and one or two AR-22's. Perhaps buy several used AR-22s, so everyone can go to the class at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Also a Palmetto fan; this one is a good consideration- for a first gun, I'm a believer in starting with open sights before moving to optics. A decent quality rear flip up would make this deal complete.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...earth-516445846.html

My past opinion that a person should start with iron sights has changed. On every one of my ARs I have a scope or a red dot sight.

If one of my many ARs has irons they are strictly there for backup to an optic. It's MUCH easier to score hits with an optic for a large number of reasons. As long as a person can afford a good quality optic I say that's the place to start. Then add backup irons later.

quote:

Originally posted by TooTech:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Also a Palmetto fan; this one is a good consideration- for a first gun, I'm a believer in starting with open sights before moving to optics. A decent quality rear flip up would make this deal complete.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...earth-516445846.html

My past opinion that a person should start with iron sights has changed. On every one of my ARs I have a scope or a red dot sight.

If one of my many ARs has irons they are strictly there for backup to an optic. It's MUCH easier to score hits with an optic for a large number of reasons. As long as a person can afford a good quality optic I say that's the place to start. Then add backup irons later.

I've found that starting with irons has made me a more proficient shooter with better habits but perhaps I'm the exception. However, I've seen folks that can drive tacks with optics that struggle to hit the side of a barn without glass.

I think the Ruger is a great value.
Everyone needs an AR and it will do the job for a class or a fight. If you're willing to lay out for the rifles and the class for your family, I think that's a wonderful gift and you won't be sorry.

After the class, everyone will have an idea of which direction they want to go, riflewise. They can either buy another upper and go crazy or build a whole nother rifle to suit them. ARs tend to multiply like rabbits
That's a feature, not a bug. Let them.

Enjoy the rifles, the class, and your family.

Bruce

Go to your local gun shop and buy a lower, and order this:


http://palmettostatearmory.com...e-kit-516446386.html


I have used a lot of Palmetto parts in build recently, and it is a tremendous value that lets you buy a rifle and a case of ammo for less than the cost of many off the shelf rifles.

Start with irons if you wish, but I recommend a red dot or low powered variable like the Steiner P4Xi. Irons add a layer of complexity to rifle shooting that simply isn't necessary, especially if you are training some younger shooters.

Students of the craft can indeed shoot very well with iron sights but if you want to get a novice shooter hitting targets with proficiency quickly, HELP THEM SEE the target.

There is no reason to saddle yourself with the idea that you must master irons first. It is an anachronistic holdover. The Marines qualify with ACOGs now.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by TooTech:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Also a Palmetto fan; this one is a good consideration- for a first gun, I'm a believer in starting with open sights before moving to optics. A decent quality rear flip up would make this deal complete.

http://palmettostatearmory.com...earth-516445846.html

My past opinion that a person should start with iron sights has changed. On every one of my ARs I have a scope or a red dot sight.

If one of my many ARs has irons they are strictly there for backup to an optic. It's MUCH easier to score hits with an optic for a large number of reasons. As long as a person can afford a good quality optic I say that's the place to start. Then add backup irons later.

I've found that starting with irons has made me a more proficient shooter with better habits but perhaps I'm the exception. However, I've seen folks that can drive tacks with optics that struggle to hit the side of a barn without glass.

you are not,

most of my AR's have irons only

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
Start with irons if you wish, but I recommend a red dot or low powered variable like the Steiner P4Xi. Irons add a layer of complexity to rifle shooting that simply isn't necessary, especially if you are training some younger shooters.

Students of the craft can indeed shoot very well with iron sights but if you want to get a novice shooter hitting targets with proficiency quickly, HELP THEM SEE the target.

I started shooting with iron sights, because Dad didn't have scopes on guns when I was a kid. When I transitioned to optics, my technique improved and even my accuracy with iron sights improved.

I have taught a few people to shoot rifles. The learning curve was faster with those who started with optics. I now have only one carbine with BUIS sights, which I haven't used in years. When throat erosion determines this carbine's barrel is toast, the BUIS on it will be gone. All carbines will then have low powered optics.

I agree with IndianaBoy -- red dot or low powered variable all the way.