...from a practical shooting position? Bipod and rear bag, tripod, etc.

...and with a practical rifle (subjective, I know). Not an overly-heavy "target" build, or one with performance attributes that might compromise reliability in adverse circumstances.

If you have achieved this level of performance, please share details about the shooting position and the rifle.

I'd like to limit responses to folks who have proved this level of performance on paper (or clean steel). You don't need to share any images. Multiple smaller groups across multiple aiming points in the same overall string are the same as a ten round "group".

I’ll test it this weekend. Any maximum time between shots?

quote:

Any maximum time between shots?

Nothing extreme. Ten seconds, I suppose.

I have a cheapo MTM rifle rest and shooting my box stock Ruger AR off the rest and a shooting bench will let me get a group like the KSGM refers to. Although I might not be able to do it consistently in ten seconds.
I used to sweat out getting small groups with an AR, mainly through better scopes, mounts, triggers and ammo.
But I felt it served no practical purpose, given the ARs role as a defensive rifle. So I set out to make my own AR accuracy standard. Which is:
Hit a six-inch diameter target, from any position (supported or unsupported) using a good LVPO out to 250 yards.
Which I can, most of the time. My next project is to improve the sights on my late production Mini 14 so I can meet this same standard. That might take some effort!
I will be curious to see how our other shooters do with this challenge.

quote:

Although I might not be able to do it consistently in ten seconds.

No more than ten seconds between each shot. Not ten shots in ten seconds.

Ah, I misread that. Sorry!

I'll give it a try next time I get out to the range. I kinda doubt it, but that's more a commentary on my abilities than the gun.

2"? Yeah I'm pretty sure. That will be fun to do this weekend f the weather cooperates.

My test today.

I fired two 10-round groups with my Wilson Combat Protector S. The scope is a 1-6× SAI. I shot from a somewhat rickety folding table using an Atlas bipod at the front, and my usual rear support which consists of a folding Atlas “foregrip” and wedge bag. The foregrip that’s serving as a rear monopod, the bag, and the bipod are what I consider to be a “field deployable” setup. The monopod is attached to the rifle stock and the bipod can be carried mounted as well. I have a somewhat smaller wedge bag that can be carried in a cargo pants leg pouch.

I did change the original stock of the rifle to a Magpul PRS Lite model to permit a bit of cheek rise.

The group on the left was fired with Berger 77 grain OTM Tactical ammunition and the one on the right with IMI 77 grain HPBT-Match. What I believe was the same IMI ammunition used to be called the OTM LR Mod 1 load, but perhaps there is some difference.








I consider the Berger load to be higher quality than the IMI, but its group measured 1.876 inch center to center whereas the IMI group was 1.485" CTC. I believe I did better with the IMI because I settled down more after firing the Berger group. From my JP Enterprises rifle and a better rest the Berger typically produces groups measuring well under 1 minute of angle. As the Berger group shows I had trouble damping down the lateral movement that caused the horizontal stringing. The IMI group would have been very respectable without the two sort-of outliers. I don’t know if they were due to me or the ammunition, but probably me.

At the range I forgot that the original question here specified groups at 100 meters, and I fired mine today at 100 yards. The groups could therefore legitimately be enlarged by about 1.09. If multiplied by that figure the Berger group would measure right at 2 inches and the IMI group ~1.6".

The prone position and I do not get along well these days, otherwise I believe the groups would have been even better. I keep thinking I should try the services of a massage therapist to see if it would help my back and neck.

Edited: spelling.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

I have a 16" mid-gas Larue that comes damn close with M193(when I'm lucky), I think If I zeroed it in with match ammo I could get there comfortably.

It's a PredatAR barrel profile "ultimate upper" they sold for a while around 8 years ago. Scope is an SWFA 6x42, which tracks really well. I put a Magpul bipod on it, which works pretty well for being light and plasticky.

I use a Rugged Radiant suppressor on it which does tighten the groups a bit.

I was just using it to kill prairie dogs this time last week at a friend's farm. Those little shits will stretch the range of your setup, no matter how good you are.

I did it all the time with an M-16A1 with M193 ammo. It was more difficult to pull off with the A2 and M855 because of the steel penetrator not being completely centered in each round. Ammo plays a big part in all this, and match grade ammo will certainly help.

yes, in the past,

A2, SGW heavy barrel ( not as heavy as an HBAR, but heavier than stock) floated handguard, Jewel trigger, A1 fixed rear stock, A2 rear sight with NM innards


rifle was weighted in the rear, otherwise not really any different that what is commonly available now,

rifle is weighted in the rear, I was much younger, with better skills (they truly are perishable) and and better eyes,

only caveat is I was slung up and in a jacket, sitting or prone, 10 shots in (60 seconds, sitting, start from standing) or (70 seconds, prone, start from standing)

never got a clean, back then but less than 2 inches in that time frame was common, (but not always, I was just a lowly expert)


prone, 10 shots, 10 minutes, same rifle, slung up the same way, and fairly easy



been partly back in the game after a too long period of not shooting, and have been struggling at getting even close to 2 inches supported,

scopes now, but I will get better, time and practice (and getting body parts to move) permitting

Well done, sigfreund.

I didn't realize more folks had replied to this thread. Very cool.

I was motivated by the replies to execute my own group. I didn't create anything impressive.

2.75" spread over 94 seconds. First shot was 24 seconds in though, so my splits were actually tighter than they needed to be.

My position was a bit sketchy, which caused that lag before the first shot. Bipod and two rear bags stacked on top of each other, with my gut rested on a tabletop, and my legs standing with a wide stance.

The trigger also didn't help, as it's an inconsistent GI type. Sometimes it feels heavy and stagey; other times it's just heavy. I need to put my Wilson trigger into this lower.

So, if I address my three excuses, I'll have a better result (hopefully sub 2").

-Position (prone would be preferred)
-Trigger
-Cadence (slow it down a bit)

Ammo is 73gr FTX Critical Defense. Rifle has a FN button rifled, chrome lined barrel. Optic is a Leupold VX3HD at 14x.

Edited to add: I have been doing much shooting like this over the past couple years. This post almost made it seem as though I just put this challenge out there and only just now did it myself. In my experience over the last two years, it seems as though 2" (or 2MOA) seems to be a significant threshold for a 5.56 fighting rifle. As in, if you and your gun can achieve sub-2" dispersion at 100m, you're doing pretty darn good.

I know I am all over the place, in my use of "MOA", 2", 100M, etc. It's a product of my shooting history and habits. I have always defaulted to 100M, as the benchmark distance. I then defer to inches when measuring group sizes. 2" is not 2MOA at 100M, but I still often use the units interchangeably. I am striving for under 2" at 100M.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

2 inches at 100 yards isn't a big deal with my DI ARs -- from a lighter weight 14" to the mid-weight 16s to the competition 18 & 20. The real issue for me is with a 14.5" LWRC piston upper. It's just not a very accurate system. It only shoots well with FGMM 69, and to a lesser extent Hornady 55 Vmax. For a 1:7 twist barrel, it shoots 73-77 grain ammo like crap. The recoil pulse isn't as smooth as my DI rifles -- I find it hard to keep the reticle exactly on target during the entire recoil pulse. It's pretty much impossible to clean carbon fouling from the barrel. It's my only upper that spits gas back to my face. It tends to send the first 2-3 cold bore shots high.

I feel fortunate that I won this upper in a match, rather than paying for it. When I shoot out the barrel, the upper is going into the trash. But it's an OK upper for CQB-type training, and it mainly gets a diet of FMJ.

Anyway, giving it a go here. Prone, bipod, rear bag. 100 yards with FGMM 69. A handful of rounds on a separate paster before the ones on the pictures. Winds were maybe 3-10 from the right, but hard to determine exactly from my position in some trees. The target was in the open, and I was gauging wind from the mirage off a snow bank 30-40 yards behind the target. I was dipshit and forgot to bring backing paper for the pasters, or a stapler for the coroplast target holder. But I found a few scraps in the ranch truck and some duct tape. Shot after a burning a couple of tanks of gas with a chainsaw.

The total strings took right at one minute to shoot. So figure 5-7 seconds per shot.

First target was the orange paster. Held center of target -- POI high, and left from wind drift. A good .99" for this gun.

Second target was the green paster to the left. I decreased elevation on the scope by 3/4 MOA -- the POI on the target was lower than what I dialed. I held a little right of center for the wind. All went well until I thought the wind changed directions. Nope -- and I pushed a shot into the 9 o'clock edge from stupidity. Group of 1.31".

Third target was the green paster on the right. Dialed back up 3/4 MOA, which again was a bit high. Held a little right of center for the wind. But again I made a bad wind call, thinking the wind direction changed -- but it didn't. A lovely 1.94" spread. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. 12 rounds, because I lost track of shots taken.

We can always count on fritz.

He digs into the dregs of his safe for a rifle he knows underperforms, and then proceeds to shoot a better group with it than I have ever shot with a 5.56 semi-auto; a group LWRC should use to sell rifles.

Well done, sir.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
We can always count on fritz.

He digs into the dregs of his safe for a rifle he knows underperforms, and then proceeds to shoot a better group with it than I have ever shot with a 5.56 semi-auto; a group LWRC should use to sell rifles.

Well done, sir.

seriously?

no disrespect to you

however, you need to get into some shooting discipline, whether it is simple (HA!!) Service Rifle/ High Power, or some of the Precision stuff like Fritz and NikonUser do,



and take a hard look at your equipment,


again, no disrespect intended, but the AR is very easy to master,(ETA,, well, kinda, if you have a good coach) and to get accurate groups,


honestly, I did builds in the 80's using button rifled SGW heavy barrels and M193 that would do 1 to 1-1/2 inch off a bench at 100 yrds,


I recall a short range match (SR/HP) last fall I helped run/coached a couple new shooters, and the guy next to the young man I was coaching that string had a 14.5 inch AR with a can,
nothing special looking, but he placed #2 the match, his prone strings were easily inside 2 inches,

Me and my equipment are both admittedly not fine-tuned. My rifles aren't precision-oriented, but I like to think I can do OK with them. Feedback from y'all helps drive improvement. I do think the sub-2" "fighting rifle" (and shooter) is at least somewhat special. There's only been four replies from folks either putting shots on paper now, or recalling having done it. If it was easy and/or common, I think we'd have more reports.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I do think the sub-2" "fighting rifle" (and shooter) is at least somewhat special. If it was easy and/or common, I think we'd have more reports.

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
but the AR is very easy to master,(ETA,, well, kinda, if you have a good coach) and to get accurate groups

I have vacillated over time as to whether I think an AR15 is easy, or not easy, to shoot accurately. It's probably a bit of both. Pick any rifle forum -- there are recurring statements of how amazingly accurate the shooter's AR is. My favorite is "sub-MOA all day long", maybe with the qualifier "when I do my part". My competition buddies jokingly use the term "ADL, baby" -- because folks who use the term generally have extremely limited understanding and capabilities of how to shoot with sub-MOA accuracy on a consistent basis, from sun up to sun down, on any given day. Even here on Sigforum, I see folks talk of their ARs producing 3/4 or 1/2 or even 1/4 MOA accuracy -- but without a single target picture. Not one. And definitely not a series of targets, over time, at various distances. I do see some 3- or 5-round targets, sometimes shot at 50 yards, touting a rifle's great accuracy. Targets at intermediate to long distances are really, really rare.

I won't profess to be a gifted shooter. I started out shooting poorly. I spent a bunch of time, effort, dollars, ammo, and training to reduce (I'll never be able to eliminate) bad practices. I've had the pleasure of being with some truly talented shooters -- instructors and fellow competitors. I wish I had their skills. If I did, the groups from my not-so-favorite LWRC would be noticeably smaller. The truly great shooters might even produce targets that make the LWRC look like a true precision rifle. Oh well....back to ham fists.

****
The next day. Variable winds from right, again. Chainsaw duty prior to shooting, again. I remembered to bring backing paper this time. As before, I shot a handful of rounds on a different paster to hopefully eliminate the cold-bore and cold-shooter issues. I left the scope's elevation the same. I suspect my 100-yard zero is set a touch too high, but I'm not futzing with it for now.

Upper group was the first group. I aimed all shots at dead center. The leftward impacts reflect wind drift.
Lower group was the second group. I aimed right of center to try to adjust for wind drift -- wasn't tremendously successful.

Part of the reason I don't have any recorded evidence of my non match grade AR accuracy is I've never needed to graph it for a baseline on barrel wear. I zero the rifle and move on. I've got a 25 year old Bravo Company upper with an unknown round count and sketchy maintenance, but it's still accurate enough for training events.

I have some electronic target photos from a few HP seasons ago, but that's a match grade rifle so it isn't very helpful for this discussion.

This has peaked my curiosity a bit because now I'm interested to see if any of my AR's are up to the challenge. I'll try to get out and punch some paper by the end of the weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Me and my equipment are both admittedly not fine-tuned. My rifles aren't precision-oriented, but I like to think I can do OK with them. Feedback from y'all helps drive improvement. I do think the sub-2" "fighting rifle" (and shooter) is at least somewhat special. There's only been four replies from folks either putting shots on paper now, or recalling having done it. If it was easy and/or common, I think we'd have more reports.