Same rifle as the April 7 session on page 2 -- 16" Wilson, 2-10x Vortex, FGMM 69. I described the results for 3 different distances in KSGM's other 10-round thread, but here's what occurred at 304 yards. Prone, bipod, rear squeeze bag. I shot this target just before the storms kicked in. I held all shots an inch or so left of the 9 o'clock point, winds from the left. The wind increased for the last 3 shots, reflected by the impacts to the right of the main dark blob. 12 rounds total. 2.25" vertical, 5.75" horizontal. About .7 MOA vertical variation. Came close to the 2" metric, but from triple the distance.

I have an original M&P 15A the one that came with Troy BUIS and a second one that I built using a M&P Piston Upper and a Smith lower. Both have upgrades too numerous to mention. I also have an Sig 556 - one of the early ones with Swiss internals. None of these can shoot sub 2 MOA at 100 without using premium ammo. If you run Federal Lake City M193 or M855 you’d be very lucky get 2.5 - 3 MOA groups. Common bulk 5.56 is just not that accurate. Also 2 of these rifles have Eotechs and one has an Aimpoint PRO. They are good minute of man optics, but provide no magnification for the sight picture required for finely aimed shooting. The rifles were setup as Patrol and SHTF weapons. Perhaps if I ran a 1 x 8 LPVO I’d get much better accuracy.

Today’s results.
A demonstration of the difference ammunition makes. I fired the pictured groups at 100 yards from the target with a JP Enterprises JP-15 rifle. The scope is an older Leupold Mark 6 3-18×44mm. The shooting position was from a somewhat rickety folding table using a bipod and rear wedge bag for support while kneeling.





The two types of ammunition were Federal American Eagle AE223 and IMI 77 grain 5.56mm HPBT-Match, similar or the same as what was previously called OTM LR Mod 1. The AE223 is similar to M193 with a 55 grain FMJ bullet with cannelure, but is labeled as 223 Remington and the cases have had the annealing discoloration polished off as is usual with commercial loads. Although I don’t recall the specifics, I believe it’s loaded to lower velocities than M193, and it’s a bulk load that is my usual practice ammunition.

This first group was definitely unexpected. Nine shots of the AE223 went into about 1.1 inch center to center, and even with the outlier it measured about 1.8". Some might have been tempted to say the outsider was due to shooter error, but I don’t believe it was. Because it had been a long time, if ever, since I’d shot that load for groups in the JP, I wondered if the load was going to surprise me with its precision.





But no, it didn’t. Below are two groups fired under the same conditions. The left group that measured about 1.2" was with the IMI. It consists of only nine shots because the first shot was high and almost off the paper so I changed targets for the rest of the string. The right group was another with the AE223 and it measured about 3.1" CTC. (These targets are smaller than the one in the first photo.) Except for the first group pictured above, the AE223 groups all measured 2.5" and larger.





So yes, ammunition definitely makes a difference. I like the IMI 77 grain load because it’s not as expensive as the really good stuff and generally performs well in my rifles. But as has been mentioned, the sight also matters a lot. Without the magnification to help prevent aiming errors maximum precision is simply not possible.

The above groups also show why small groups are worthless for judging the precision or accuracy of a rifle/ammo combination (unless they are bad). Even if a large group looks good, it’s necessary to fire several to confirm what’s being seen.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

Hello. Just thought I'd share this info in the thread. I shot this 10-round, 100 yard group this past weekend.

• The group was shot immediately after firing 60 prior rounds over the course of about 30 minutes doing some training drills. I don't recall the time between shots, but no more than 10 seconds or so. Just enough to get fully re-settled.
  
• Temp was 35 degrees with no wind.
  
• Shot from a bench using a front bag and my fist as rear support.
  
• Ammo was Prvi Partizan Rangemaster 5.56mm NATO M193
  
• Rifle is a complete factory Centurion Arms with 16" medium weight CHF barrel and Geissele SSA.
  
• Optic is an SAI6 1-6x with MRAD reticle. (This group was shot with the optic set at 4x.)
  
• Point of aim was the reticle's crosshair centered in the red blob.
  

Chris

For me, I would consider that to be a very decent group for that sight, target, and type of ammunition.

was thinking about this thread the other day, and wondering if it got buried,


did take a couple rifles out (16 inch parts builds, as in spare parts turn into rifles) and using generic ammo, did better than 3 inches, but not 2,

need to break out the LMT upper and see (14.5)


might have time after the holidays

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
For me, I would consider that to be a very decent group for that sight, target, and type of ammunition.

I agree, I would just add that a good trigger will help a lot. Even something like the PSA enhanced trigger which I like especially for the $. I would like to try a LaRue.

I am with sigfreund. Great results.

Gun and shooter likely capable of better with different target and ammo.

When I bought my POF complete rifle, I mounted a 5-20x scope for testing. It would easily shoot under 2" for 10 rounds. Groups were under 1.5" from what I remember. The Geissele trigger probably helped.

100 yds, Bipod, rear bag, AAC 77gr OTM, NF 2.5-10, BCM 16" Kd4 upper.

Easy when I had my Rock River NMC using custom 77 grain loads using Sierra MK.

That was using Iron sights...but the vision was a lot better back then.