quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Does google not work in California? There are options on the first page of a google search I just did.

What occurs with a shooter with advanced fundamentals of marksmanship:
- pull the trigger
- gun goes boom
- gun recoils slightly backwards, but crosshairs remain on target
- shooter keeps eyes open the whole time, focused on target
- if the distance to target is great enough, the shooter sees the bullet impact the target. On steel targets, this means watching a gray blur strip the paint off the steel and watching the bullet shards spread in all directions.
- if the distance to target is a little more and the atmospheric conditions are good, the shooter watches a gray/transparent blur gracefully arc up, then down, towards the target. The shooter then watches the bullet splat into the steel target. If there's any cross wind, the shooter sees the gray/transparent blur gracefully arc sideways with the wind. All this occurs in a few tenth's of a second, depending on the distance to the target.

I found the Tikka but only for non-223 calibers (but also, I was using Bing and not the G word) I'll try the G search engine.

That makes more sense. I think I took your words more literally. I usually use paper targets - I don't think steel is allowed on our 300 yard range.

Thanks Tony! I'm a novice so I actually have no clue what I'm looking at and what it would take to make it turn key.

Let me read up on it and compare it to the Ruger Precision and the Savage Stealth offerings. I'm probably trying to get into a 223 at this point based on recommendations above + ammo I have.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Okay, did a quick website scan:

1. Seems like Ruger Precision not offered in 223 so maybe that's off the table unless I move to 308. Ruger

Here's one in .223 at Bud's Gun Shop for <$1k

https://www.budsgunshop.com/ca...019+223rem+20+10%2B1

Hey! Thanks! Nice find. Is Bud's GtG? Not really familiar w/ them. It's bolt action so this should be be okay to buy out here, right? I was going to do some checking because I haven't been keeping up on this stuff for the past few years or so.

If I didn't have a "thing" for the 6.5CM and was looking for what you are, I would have snapped this up in a heatbeat. Like many Ruger products, they cater to our market restrictions.

I consider Bud's the industry standard in regards to big name sellers

quote:

If I didn't have a "thing" for the 6.5CM and was looking for what you are, I would have snapped this up in a heatbeat. Like many Ruger products, they cater to our market restrictions.

Ok. I'll research the Ruger a bit more - it's probably the lead candidate. I think I prefer that it has a longer handguard than the Tikka for bag / bipod support. Also, it's 1:7 instead of 1:9.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
That makes more sense. I think I took your words more literally. I usually use paper targets - I don't think steel is allowed on our 300 yard range.

It's easier to see impacts on steel than paper. It's a combination of bullet splash, visibility of bullet going into steel, and scope magnification/clarity. To see impacts on paper, the shooter generally must have a clean target and know where the bullet will impact. Shoot-n-see pasters help, too. With high-powered scopes I can see my impacts at 200 yards on Shoot-n-see pasters. In really good light this may increase to 300 yards. But I can't see those impacts with mid-powered optics at 200 yards.

With my heaviest AR-15, I've seen a few of my own impacts on Shoot-n-see pasters at 100 yards. When that occurs, I know my technique is spot on. On such days I shoot itty bitty groups.

Seeing trace isn't a function of target type, construction, color, or anything else. It's a function of not letting recoil move your gun, and knowing how to pick up the trace blur within a few tenths of a second of touching off the round. Seeing your own trace on targets closer than 400 to 500 yards is an indication of solid technique. There's so little time see the bullet fly, but at least the apogee of the flight curve often appears within your scope. The bigger the bullet, the easier it is to see trace.

Seeing your own trace on targets at 700 to 1000 yards is easier from a time of flight concept. However, the apogee of the bullet's flight curve may be above the viewing portion of your scope, and the trace will generally be visible only as the bullet falls back towards the target -- maybe only the last 100-200 yards before target impact.

Seeing trace with a bargain-level scope is almost impossible. Seeing trace with optics with ED glass is way easier.

Trace is much easier to see by a spotter, using a good spotting scope that it set up directly behind the shooter and as close as practical to the shooter's bore height. This is where I first saw bullet trace.

If I were doing it all over, I’d get a Tikka T3x from EuroOptic for $700-900 and swap the stock for a Kinetic Research Group chassis (or some other company’s).

A hint about dealing with EuroOptic is to mention that you will pay with a check. They take the information over the phone and I have gotten some worthwhile discounts that way.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If I were doing it all over, I’d get a Tikka T3x from EuroOptic for $700-900 and swap the stock for a Kinetic Research Group chassis (or some other company’s).

A hint about dealing with EuroOptic is to mention that you will pay with a check. They take the information over the phone and I have gotten some worthwhile discounts that way.

Also suggest the above with the KRG Bravo chassis.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

Seeing trace isn't a function of target type, construction, color, or anything else. It's a function of not letting recoil move your gun, and knowing how to pick up the trace blur within a few tenths of a second of touching off the round. Seeing your own trace on targets closer than 400 to 500 yards is an indication of solid technique. There's so little time see the bullet fly, but at least the apogee of the flight curve often appears within your scope. The bigger the bullet, the easier it is to see trace.

Seeing your own trace on targets at 700 to 1000 yards is easier from a time of flight concept. However, the apogee of the bullet's flight curve may be above the viewing portion of your scope, and the trace will generally be visible only as the bullet falls back towards the target -- maybe only the last 100-200 yards before target impact.

Thanks Fritz. Man, I've got a lot to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If I were doing it all over, I’d get a Tikka T3x from EuroOptic for $700-900 and swap the stock for a Kinetic Research Group chassis (or some other company’s).

A hint about dealing with EuroOptic is to mention that you will pay with a check. They take the information over the phone and I have gotten some worthwhile discounts that way.

Thanks!! I didn't know you could swap stocks / frames like this. This perhaps opens up more choices and puts Tikka back in the running again.

ETA: oh wait, $900 for the chassis gives me pause....

Yes, I went with the X-Ray chassis; the Whiskey was too much even for me.

so I would recommend a bolt action also. First I would like to recommend the .243win over the .223
Reason's are obvious. More power. Ammo availability is good. It just gives a lot more flexibility on uses.

I am a huge fan of the Remington 788. You can find a really nice version of the .243win for $500. Had to beat.

I also like the Tikka and A-bolt. Most others not so much. That is all I got.

Here's the XM21 in a wood stock with the 18" medium weight barrel and a 10 round mag. I have to remove some bedding material from the stock since it was bedded to a Springfield rifle before which is why the trigger guard won't lock.



This rifle will be more than adequate inside 300 yards and will be capable out to 800 yards.

I threw on the scope and Bradley cheek riser to illustrate a proper setup.

Tony.

My first pick is CZ 527 (Rifle or Carbine length). It’ll shoot both .223 and 5.56. Wonderful set trigger.

Second pick is Vanguard S2 .223 (Rifle or Carbine length) - it’s more solid than the tikka imo with better stock out of the box....but that’s just my personal preference. In the lower price point Weatherby rifles like the Vanguard S2 the actions are made for Weatherby by Howa and come with Weatherby warranty.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: x0225095,

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If I were doing it all over, I’d get a Tikka T3x from EuroOptic for $700-900 and swap the stock for a Kinetic Research Group chassis (or some other company’s).

A hint about dealing with EuroOptic is to mention that you will pay with a check. They take the information over the phone and I have gotten some worthwhile discounts that way.

Thanks!! I didn't know you could swap stocks / frames like this. This perhaps opens up more choices and puts Tikka back in the running again.

ETA: oh wait, $900 for the chassis gives me pause....

The advantage to a chassis like the KRG Bravo is the vertical grip. Much more natural to have our hand in that position VS a almost locked wrist of hunting style grip/stock. Trigger fundamentals will be easier to master, pulling the trigger straight back.... There's a reason why vertical grips are used in F-Class, Benchrest and the like

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
There's a reason why vertical grips are used in F-Class, Benchrest and the like

Bingo.

OP -- I don't think shooters must have bolt action rifles set up exactly like their ARs. Similar features, yes. Exactly the same, no.

I spend a fair amount of time behind my ARs. All of them have fairly vertical grips (BCM Gunfighter) and single-stage triggers.

My bolt action rifles have more traditional McMillan/Manners-type stocks. With fairly vertical grips and single-stage triggers. I personally don't care much the modular or chassis or AR-type stocks on bolt action rifles -- although I have no issues shooting such rifles.

YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
If I were doing it all over, I’d get a Tikka T3x from EuroOptic for $700-900 and swap the stock for a Kinetic Research Group chassis (or some other company’s).

A hint about dealing with EuroOptic is to mention that you will pay with a check. They take the information over the phone and I have gotten some worthwhile discounts that way.

Thanks!! I didn't know you could swap stocks / frames like this. This perhaps opens up more choices and puts Tikka back in the running again.

ETA: oh wait, $900 for the chassis gives me pause....

The advantage to a chassis like the KRG Bravo is the vertical grip. Much more natural to have our hand in that position VS a almost locked wrist of hunting style grip/stock. Trigger fundamentals will be easier to master, pulling the trigger straight back.... There's a reason why vertical grips are used in F-Class, Benchrest and the like

While I haven't tried/seen it, one of the benefits touted on the T3x is the interchangable grip modules, from angled to nearer to vertical.

Standard:


'Vertical'

Seems like my primary candidates at this point include:

1) Ruger Precision 223 (long handguard, pistol grip, 2D adjustable stock. $1000 street price. Basically seems turnkey.

2) Tikka T3X (or some variant thereof). (more standard config but can change to TRG chassis). $700-900 street price + $600-900 TRG. Advantage of this route? Better quality? Accuracy? Better chassis?

Should I look into Mossberg and Savage still?

Complication.....

I completely agree with the thinking behind the recommendation for 223.

My brother is willing to give me a Rem 700 5R in 308. Budget conscious me -- should I go that route? Or should I stick to the 223 options above?

Can I use the KRG chassis on this Rem? KRG says it works on 700 SA/LA (not sure what the really means and whether it applies to the 700 5R).

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Complication.....

I completely agree with the thinking behind the recommendation for 223.

My brother is willing to give me a Rem 700 5R in 308. Budget conscious me -- should I go that route? Or should I stick to the 223 options above?

Can I use the KRG chassis on this Rem? KRG says it works on 700 SA/LA (not sure what the really means and whether it applies to the 700 5R).

Being the anti 308, I would pass. That's a light rifle, 223 will be much more fun to learn on, cheaper to feed. Yes, the R700 5R would fit on the KRG chassis.

FYI, I've shot a T3X/factory stock with the vertical grip add on, grip on the stubby side for my paw. YMMV.

Okay - so even if free, stick w/ the 223. But especially if I buy from him, definitely stick to the 223.