So if this whole tactical rifle match thing bites me and my daughter big, I've got to feed the AR. There's no money saving with the M14 but fortunately, I shoot these things a lot and my trigger finger is pretty calibrated.

My daughter, on the other hand was only in The Marines for 4 years and only qualified once a year and she had a logistics job. She's got the fundamentals down but needs A LOT more trigger time. She was expert on the KD course but apparently not so good on "table 2" or whatever that is. I got out in February of 2001 before ACOGs and "table 2" ever was implemented into our annual qualification. I learned and qualified on iron sighted M16's. I shot 50's out of helicopters more than I shot the M16 anyway.

I became a better shooter after I got out because I spent more time at the range.

If she gets hooked and wants to shoot more and get better, I'm gonna need a 22lr upper and some mags so we can refine some motor skills.

Any recommendations?

Tony.

Disclaimer: I haven't shot one. But heard good things about Nordic 22LR Uppers. So grain of salt and all.

https://nordiccomp.com/categories/nc-22rb-upper/

I'd recommend just buying the S+W M+P .22lr sport. It's designed as a .22 LR right from the get go, and very very similar. Eventually you may get to a point where you want to shoot both .22 lr and .223 at the range the same day. If you get bored with the .22 LR, you could sell the gun for much better money than a conversion kit. Also .22 LR really hammers a lower with grit and dirt and is a pain to clean. Every time I go to the range, I always bring a .22 LR and start out with that, but NEVER shoot only .22 LR anytime I go to the range.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I'd recommend just buying the S+W M+P .22lr sport. It's designed as a .22 LR right from the get go, and very very similar. Eventually you may get to a point where you want to shoot both .22 lr and .223 at the range the same day. If you get bored with the .22 LR, you could sell the gun for much better money than a conversion kit. Also .22 LR really hammers a lower with grit and dirt and is a pain to clean. Every time I go to the range, I always bring a .22 LR and start out with that, but NEVER shoot only .22 LR anytime I go to the range.

Thanks. Looks like I can get one substantially cheaper than a CMMG 22lr upper.

Tony.

I have built/assembled several tac sol uppers on aero p lowers. All were functional. None were superb. I have shot a sig 522 quite a bit and it was as good as the tac sol. Colt's ar22lr is a tactical plunger imho. I currently have a kriss defiance.

See my thread here
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...30028934&f=630601935

I dont have any exp with the smith and wesson. They are well thought of though.

First of all, don't even think about the conversions where you remove the BCG of your 223 AR-15 and drop in a 22lr BCG. Not a good way to go.

A lot depends on your accuracy expectations. If you want to shoot cheap supersonic 22lr ammo, and hit kinda sorta close to your POA, grab anything that suits your fancy.

If you want shoot quality subsonic 22lr ammo, if you want to hit your POA at multiple distances, get a quality 22lr upper. The short list will include Compass Lake Engineering and JP. I went with a JP upper, Black Dog magazines, and a NF SHV scope. Great system -- I would never consider a lesser option now.

I don't care about subsonic ammo, but I do have a 22lr can. I just care about shooting reliably, fairly accurate and something that we can practice shooting tactical targets out to 50 yards and practice magazine changes.

Something to develop the motor skills and muscle memory to prepare for a match.

The nice thing is that at the range we go to, we can use the action pistol range with a 22lr rifle. We can't use 5.56 AR's but we can use rifles chambered in pistol calibers.

At the action range, we can set up targets as close as we want and fire as rapidly as we want.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I don't care about subsonic ammo, but I do have a 22lr can. I just care about shooting reliably, fairly accurate and something that we can practice shooting tactical targets out to 50 yards and practice magazine changes.

Something to develop the motor skills and muscle memory to prepare for a match.

The nice thing is that at the range we go to, we can use the action pistol range with a 22lr rifle. We can't use 5.56 AR's but we can use rifles chambered in pistol calibers.

At the action range, we can set up targets as close as we want and fire as rapidly as we want.

Tony.

The go with a rifle made just for .22LR instead of an upper. The S+W, Colt and Sig 522 will feed most of the bulk .22 LR ammo you can feed it without any hiccups.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I'd recommend just buying the S+W M+P .22lr sport. It's designed as a .22 LR right from the get go, and very very similar. Eventually you may get to a point where you want to shoot both .22 lr and .223 at the range the same day. If you get bored with the .22 LR, you could sell the gun for much better money than a conversion kit. Also .22 LR really hammers a lower with grit and dirt and is a pain to clean. Every time I go to the range, I always bring a .22 LR and start out with that, but NEVER shoot only .22 LR anytime I go to the range.

Thanks. Looks like I can get one substantially cheaper than a CMMG 22lr upper.

Tony.

I lucked into one of the original Spikes dedicated .22 uppers gently used. If I had to replace or if I was buying today, I’d probably do the CMMG. I just bought one of their Guards and it’s a cool gun and well built.

I built one with CMMG components and it works great. Built it to use the M&P magazines.

I'd probably go with an M&P because I've only heard good things about them. Would have, but I had some lowers and felt like a build!

I've a pretty large inventory of these...spikes, CMMG, Tacsol, JPE and a couple I built.
I can't see any advantage over getting the S&W for the kind of use you are talking about. That said if you were set on getting an upper for some reason the CMMG is currently what I'd recommend mostly.

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:
Disclaimer: I haven't shot one. But heard good things about Nordic 22LR Uppers. So grain of salt and all.

https://nordiccomp.com/categories/nc-22rb-upper/

I have one of their uppers, an 8.25" to be exact, that I put on one of my SBR'd lowers. Believe me when I say that the fit and finish is awesome. Compared to CMMG and even the Tactical Solutions offers the Nordic shines. That said, I bought mine for a very specific application (already registered NFA lower); I also got it during a great sale on Black Friday several years ago.

If I were looking today for something to shoot in your stated application it would either be a S&W M&P 15-22 or a Sig 522 (both of which I own). Both are great, Sig is heavier, but crappier trigger. The upside is that it will digest any .22 ammo you can find. I had an old box of BSA ammo that I found in my garage that was tarnished beyond belief, the case lube was dry and crusty, even my CZ 455 was having extraction issues. Not the 522, it ate it without complaining.

The S&W is a great pinker and lighter weight (if you have kids to factor in) that allows for extended shooting sessions. Mags are cheap, plentiful, and super easy to load.

Not a chance someone should get a 522 at this point. none. Not that its not very nice in this market space, it is, (I have 2 and they run and run), but SIG has abandoned it and its not something you should get at this point for the purposes stated. there are no parts or support.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I don't care about subsonic ammo, but I do have a 22lr can.

I suspect you have little experience with 22lr ammo.

With few exceptions -- namely RWS R100 and Lapua Polar Biathlon -- supersonic ammo shoots with noticeably inferior accuracy to subsonic ammo. Subsonic ammo almost always produces less residue in the barrel and action than supersonic ammo.

Supersonic ammo's accuracy problem appears to be issues with transonic flight. Subsonic ammo avoids this instability by being under Mach 1 from the get go. Interestingly, wind deflection is generally higher on the supersonic ammo.

Not sure what your FFL wholesale cost would be, but Palmetto has the M&P 15-22 M-Lok for $299 w/ free shipping, and S&W has a military service member $50 rebate on it right now. Pretty tough to beat.

Thanks for the info Fritz! I only own one 22lr rifle (10/22) and it’s for plinking and letting my son shoot steel targets. I’ve never shot 22lr for accuracy.

I’ll look around for the M&P.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I'd recommend just buying the S+W M+P .22lr sport. It's designed as a .22 LR right from the get go, and very very similar. Eventually you may get to a point where you want to shoot both .22 lr and .223 at the range the same day. If you get bored with the .22 LR, you could sell the gun for much better money than a conversion kit. Also .22 LR really hammers a lower with grit and dirt and is a pain to clean. Every time I go to the range, I always bring a .22 LR and start out with that, but NEVER shoot only .22 LR anytime I go to the range.

Thanks. Looks like I can get one substantially cheaper than a CMMG 22lr upper.

Tony.

Do this for sure. Plus you don't gunk up your centerfire ARs with rimfire crud.

The M&P is okay for short range accuracy, but the rifle is so light it does not mimic an AR-22. Also you cannot put in a real AR trigger. Two friends have one, and one of those is a jam-o-matic.
I have a custom upper from https://mgpcustoms.com/

5 shot groups usually less than a half inch at 50 yards, sometimes much less.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I don't care about subsonic ammo, but I do have a 22lr can. I just care about shooting reliably, fairly accurate and something that we can practice shooting tactical targets out to 50 yards and practice magazine changes.

Something to develop the motor skills and muscle memory to prepare for a match.

Faster magazine changes are rarely a significant difference maker in practical rifle competitions.

The amount of time it takes to change a magazine is insignificant compared to the amount of time that I see people burn on the clock because they do not understand, or forget how, to build a good rifle shooting position.


Learning how to shoot prone, off of every kind of improved rest you can think of, and offhand, are skills that you certainly can build with a 22lr upper.

At the match that I shot on Friday, I used the following things to help stabilize my rifle:

A large dump truck tire, the roof of a truck while I was kneeling in the bed, a metal gate, a large plastic culvert, the wooden frame of an open door, a deck railing on top of a tower, the top of a fabricated climbing wall.

Also a lot of offhand as well. I often utilize a technique called approach shooting for offhand shooting. Patrick Kelley has a great video on youtube that illustrates the technique of approach shooting.

In many circumstances, utilizing a technique called reverse kneeling will help immensely if you are behind something that is an appropriate height to brace your rifle on/against.




Long winded version of this:

Don't worry too much about magazine changes in the grand scheme of things. Breaking clean shots is where time is made or lost.



The match I shot on Friday is called Rock Hard and is part of a series of "Hard as Hell' multigun matches.

Rough idea: Par times of 5 minutes on every stage, slung rifles and holstered handguns carried to the end of each stage and never abandoned, huge round counts and lots of strenuous movement over and through terrain and obstacles. Lots of people time out and don't make it to the end of stages.

If you go back and review videos, the people who do the best are people who cleanly and efficiently knock down targets with their guns, not the people who can sprint the fastest. It's why Jerry Miculek is still competitive in the sport of 3-gun which many people might consider a young man's game. He is so damned fast at shooting stuff that it isn't particularly relevant that he might lose a few steps to a 25 year old.



The fundamentals of shooting a handgun translate very well to shooting a rifle, although there are many rifle positions that are very useful which have no analog in the handgun world. It still all boils down to breaking a clean shot when your sight is on the target.


Regretfully I don't have any video of my own performance at the match because the task of shooting the entire match in one day didn't allow me the time to mess with getting a camera set up. If I did you would see some rifle shooting that I was very proud of, some mediocre work with the shotgun, and some damn pitiful pistol shooting.

addendum:


Being able to shoot prone off of a magazine, using the magazine as a monopod, is a very useful technique.

It still requires some stabilization of the rifle using your support hand, but it MAY be the most stable technique depending on what else you have available.