Colt or FN AR??

October 04, 2021, 02:09 PM

WARPIG602

Colt or FN AR??

quote:
Originally posted by bnz42:
If I could only have one AR, it would either be a Noveske or a LMT.

Noveske is a marketing company.

October 04, 2021, 02:13 PM

parabellum

Yes, of thse two, I'd choose Lewis Machine & Tool, hands down.

I think Noveske was a different company when John was still alive.

October 04, 2021, 02:44 PM

old rugged cross

I am a Noveske fan, admittedly I do not know much about them currently. I own some LMT products too. Problem with them is they mostly abandoned the civilian market. So finding any product at somewhat of a reasonable price for the last ten years or so has been pretty much a no go. Both are quality products.
I do not own any DD. Very expensive. It has not been that long ago they went broke iirc.

October 04, 2021, 10:41 PM

WARPIG602

quote:
Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I am a Noveske fan, admittedly I do not know much about them currently. I own some LMT products too. Problem with them is they mostly abandoned the civilian market. So finding any product at somewhat of a reasonable price for the last ten years or so has been pretty much a no go. Both are quality products.
I do not own any DD. Very expensive. It has not been that long ago they went broke iirc.

My issue with Noveske is they are an AR builder, not a manufacturer. Noting entirely wrong with that, except your paying a premium price for a part that costs half as much from the actual manufacturer because it has a well marketed logo. Thats not to say they dont build a nice AR, but at the end of the day, Noveske is at the mercy of its suppliers. That being said, there are lots of respected builders out there but they arent doing anything you cant do yourself with the proper knowledge and tools.

Daniel Defense has done nothing but grow. You're paying for a proven product. Whats that's worth is subjective. I can own any AR I want,I have a wall of AR's I built myself...... both of my primary AR's are Daniel Defense. I could be just as happy with LMT or KAC but Daniel Defense was the road I took and I have no qualms.

October 04, 2021, 10:46 PM

parabellum

I have three ARs with DD CHF barrels and they impress the Hell out of me.

October 04, 2021, 11:15 PM

MikeGLI

If'n only their furniture was a little softer on the eyes.

All jokes aside, i've handled a shot a lot of DD and when the day comes where I'm shopping for some Gucci AR, they'll be in the mix.

October 05, 2021, 12:55 AM

WARPIG602

quote:
Originally posted by MikeGLI:
If'n only their furniture was a little softer on the eyes.

All jokes aside, i've handled a shot a lot of DD and when the day comes where I'm shopping for some Gucci AR, they'll be in the mix.

Its an acquired taste, although I do prefer the straighter grips.
DD is definitely anti gucci in terms of build. Although they have upgraded some things since I bought mine, they originally came with milspec triggers,charging handles and safeties. I turned to Geissele and Radians to better suit my taste. I think thats why people considered them to be overpriced, but they worked day in and day out.

October 05, 2021, 06:52 AM

Black92LX

I have a couple DD grips on some rifles. They are quite comfortable.
I had planned on building a rifle with a DD barrel but LaRue had a killer deal on their builder kits so I just built one of those but went with an 18” for a little more bench/distance shooting.

I’ll have our armorer go over the gun I doubt that it needs to be replaced completely but if the barrel does I’ll take Para’s advice and swap to a DD barrel.
Likely a 14.5” with pinned and welded muzzle device.

I’d like a complete new lighter rifle but have hit a little snafu that the money will need to be spent elsewhere.

October 05, 2021, 09:05 AM

WARPIG602

quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
I have a couple DD grips on some rifles. They are quite comfortable.
I had planned on building a rifle with a DD barrel but LaRue had a killer deal on their builder kits so I just built one of those but went with an 18” for a little more bench/distance shooting.

I’ll have our armorer go over the gun I doubt that it needs to be replaced completely but if the barrel does I’ll take Para’s advice and swap to a DD barrel.
Likely a 14.5” with pinned and welded muzzle device.

I’d like a complete new lighter rifle but have hit a little snafu that the money will need to be spent elsewhere.

Cany go wrong with those barrels. I think im up to 5 on my home builds. My 18in DD S2W barrel shoots ragged holes regularly: 5 @100:

15 @ 200:

October 05, 2021, 01:23 PM

Rustpot

quote:
Originally posted by WARPIG602:
My issue with Noveske is they are an AR builder, not a manufacturer. Noting entirely wrong with that, except your paying a premium price for a part that costs half as much from the actual manufacturer because it has a well marketed logo. Thats not to say they dont build a nice AR, but at the end of the day, Noveske is at the mercy of its suppliers. That being said, there are lots of respected builders out there but they arent doing anything you cant do yourself with the proper knowledge and tools.

Daniel Defense has done nothing but grow. You're paying for a proven product. Whats that's worth is subjective. I can own any AR I want,I have a wall of AR's I built myself...... both of my primary AR's are Daniel Defense. I could be just as happy with LMT or KAC but Daniel Defense was the road I took and I have no qualms.

Very few quality brands in the space make their own small parts. Some don't make any parts. I don't believe one needs to own the manufacturing facility to deliver added value to a product, but there are certainly brands that have rested on their reputation. There are plenty of brands that do make a ton in house, but are absolutely trash as well.

Since we're discussing brands outside Colt and FN - BCM and SOLGW are brands that are similar to Noveske when it comes to manufacturing vs. building guns. I don't think the reputation of either of those is marred by the fact that they don't physically cut the metal on every part in their guns. Well, to some people it might I suppose.

And to add another opinion on the pile- I am not a fan of DD, I think they're at least $500 overpriced for complete rifles, if not more. Their barrels and handguards are great, the rest of the rifle is nothing too special. Their lack of attention at the castle nut disappoints me, and most of the DD guns I've played with were overgassed. I've heard their gas port selection is a bit smaller these days and the numbers I've seen from friends put them back in line with Crane, but for years their retail Mk18 barrels were in the 0.080 range for port diameter, crane spec is 0.070". Noveske barrels were similarly overgassed (actually worse), I haven't looked at those in quite a while.

My favorite barrels right now are Centurion and Hodge/FN. Fantastic performing combat barrels. I don't think you can go wrong with a new DD barrel, though. I would recommend you check the gas port size (regardless of brand), as that will give you information on how to setup the buffer to match the gas on the new barrel, if its different.

October 05, 2021, 02:27 PM

46and2

Are the Colt commando 11.5" uppers a quality product worth buying still, for a build?

October 05, 2021, 02:52 PM

KSGM

quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
Are the Colt commando 11.5" uppers a quality product worth buying still, for a build?

This is likely a YMMV thing. I have a 933 LE surplus upper on a build. I bought it in 2013(ish). It has been an outstanding upper. Very accurate. Maybe depends on when the gun was originally built. Definitely depends on how the agency treated it.

October 05, 2021, 03:05 PM

WARPIG602

quote:
Originally posted by Rustpot:
quote:
Originally posted by WARPIG602:
My issue with Noveske is they are an AR builder, not a manufacturer. Noting entirely wrong with that, except your paying a premium price for a part that costs half as much from the actual manufacturer because it has a well marketed logo. Thats not to say they dont build a nice AR, but at the end of the day, Noveske is at the mercy of its suppliers. That being said, there are lots of respected builders out there but they arent doing anything you cant do yourself with the proper knowledge and tools.

Daniel Defense has done nothing but grow. You're paying for a proven product. Whats that's worth is subjective. I can own any AR I want,I have a wall of AR's I built myself...... both of my primary AR's are Daniel Defense. I could be just as happy with LMT or KAC but Daniel Defense was the road I took and I have no qualms.

Very few quality brands in the space make their own small parts. Some don't make any parts. I don't believe one needs to own the manufacturing facility to deliver added value to a product, but there are certainly brands that have rested on their reputation. There are plenty of brands that do make a ton in house, but are absolutely trash as well.

Since we're discussing brands outside Colt and FN - BCM and SOLGW are brands that are similar to Noveske when it comes to manufacturing vs. building guns. I don't think the reputation of either of those is marred by the fact that they don't physically cut the metal on every part in their guns. Well, to some people it might I suppose.

And to add another opinion on the pile- I am not a fan of DD, I think they're at least $500 overpriced for complete rifles, if not more. Their barrels and handguards are great, the rest of the rifle is nothing too special. Their lack of attention at the castle nut disappoints me, and most of the DD guns I've played with were overgassed. I've heard their gas port selection is a bit smaller these days and the numbers I've seen from friends put them back in line with Crane, but for years their retail Mk18 barrels were in the 0.080 range for port diameter, crane spec is 0.070". Noveske barrels were similarly overgassed (actually worse), I haven't looked at those in quite a while.

My favorite barrels right now are Centurion and Hodge/FN. Fantastic performing combat barrels. I don't think you can go wrong with a new DD barrel, though. I would recommend you check the gas port size (regardless of brand), as that will give you information on how to setup the buffer to match the gas on the new barrel, if its different.

Im not saying its impossible to do it correctly, outsourcing the parts. I was merely stating that I believe when a company produces most if not all of the ingredients, the end result is a more consistent product day in, day out. I think Daniel Defense developed a great recipe for their rifles thats proven to work and they can maintain that quality in house. As I stated in my previous comment, depending on what your number 0 priority is, they may not be the best value out there on the surface. They certainly dont have "gucci" components as their price would lead you to believe. At the end of the day I just wanted a rifle that would fire without question. It didnt have to be the mot accurate, smoothest, lightest or have fancy controls or components. I also didnt pay retail prices for mine so the value, for me wasnt as much as a question commpared to someone standing in line at a shop. If that was case for me, LMT would have garnered more consideration.

October 05, 2021, 03:09 PM

WARPIG602

quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
Are the Colt commando 11.5" uppers a quality product worth buying still, for a build?

Like anything else, its a comparative question. I think cost would be the determining factor for me.

I have an older Colt 6920 and 20in AR, both have been relable with acceptabe accuarcy.

October 05, 2021, 03:54 PM

46and2

I've had cheap Bushmaster and nicely spec'd RR ADCOs in the past, various PSAs and Franken-kits now, in various sizes, but what I want for the next one is a *super reliable 11.5" pistol* that runs as well supressed as it does unsuppressed and that's *very accurate out to 100m*, and minute of pie-plate/zombie-head or better out to 300m, *emphasis on quality, consistency, reliability, and accuracy, and it must be 11.5"...*

I have heard good things about those Colt commando uppers, but don't know them firsthand, and I'm not a super parts nerd, myself, hence the question. Haven't had time on Colts since Army in the 90s. Thanks.

Looking to build something top notch, but not unnecessarily fancy. A nice older Colt upper/barrel seems interesting, maybe, if it's all it's cracked up to be. Emphasis on if...

October 05, 2021, 05:05 PM

WARPIG602

My experience with 11.5's is minimal. When I was looking for SBR I was almost sure the MK18 10.3 would be my choice. Ager further research, its seems reliability ent up quite a bit at the 11.5in mark so thats when I started focusing in that range.

Given your criteria, Id pass on the Colt, I think you will get better accuracy from other companies. A lot comes into play when talking about reliability from supressed to unsuppressd. Gas blocks, gas ports, buffers etc will all come into play. Id look into the bigger names mentioned throughout this post, BCM, DD, LMT. LWRC. There is really no wrong answer in the top tiers, just preferences and price. I went DD because I trust them and I have no complaints. Accuracy for me has been 1-1.25in with my 77gr SMK handloads. Sometimes better but I can count on 1.25. I have just over 3k rounds through it now, but id say only about 800 of those Id consider hard use. The rest have been a couple hundred at a time between clean lubes. Not a hiccup yet. Id expect any of the other names mentioned to perform the same.

October 05, 2021, 05:33 PM

46and2

Gracias.

I'm a DD fan, too, and their 10.3" is fine for most people and scenarios. I just want one setup that's 11.5".

Anyway, pardon the drift.

October 06, 2021, 02:05 AM

David W

I have no complaints about my BCM 11.5” it feeds suppressed and unsuppressed.

October 06, 2021, 03:39 AM

bolo4tom

my factory Colt 6933 11.5 inch is extremely accurate, reliable and very fun to shoot. (shown with old school furniture and mb)

October 06, 2021, 07:20 AM

PGT

I just worked on a brand new p/w 14.5" Noveske for a friend and it was VERY nicely done. That said, it's clearly an Aero Precision OEM'ed lower with the tension screw behind the grip screw to take out play with the upper.

I also pulled out my 13.7" SOLGW to compare with the Noveske. I do have an old blem Noveske lower from a decade ago and it's clearly different than the new stuff.

My first even AR was a DDMV7. It was a solid meh.

As for Colt vs. FN...if new production, definitely FN. The new Colts are not on par with the old ones. I just got a new 6920 and it feels more like a random parts build AR compared to my Mexican contract 6920.