quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:
From my rifle days.

Ooh, nice. Make/model?

Anschutz Model 54 Super Match
Older than 1965. 1965 the model became 1413

I also have another 1413. from 1965.
Also a 60s made Walther KKM II, a Martini MkII, and a 40x

It would be very interesting to see how older guns like those compare in practical precision with newer rifles. But although it’s possible to get very good groups with proper targets using irons, optics obviously make a difference. I’ve resolved that I need to take my 52 to the range when the weather improves a bit just for that purpose.

And usncorpsman, that 20-shot group never fails to amaze me whenever I see it.

I’m at a crossroad, do I spend 5k on a Vudoo gun works and March scope?

I mean I’m a Remington Thunderbolt kind of guy, so if I’m paying 15$ a box should I be shooting something bigger?

I’m okay spending 1500$ on a full Kidd build to play with.

It’s a tough sell. Not the money cause I can certainly justify the quality, but more of it fitting my style of shooting and enjoying firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
it fitting my style of shooting and enjoying firearms.

Yes, I believe I understand completely.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I’m at a crossroad, do I spend 5k on a Vudoo gun works and March scope?

I mean I’m a Remington Thunderbolt kind of guy, so if I’m paying 15$ a box should I be shooting something bigger?
I’m okay spending 1500$ on a full Kidd build to play with.

True high end 22lr rifles require a substantial investment. They generally shoot almost all match-quality rounds very well. Each rifle/barrel will have its own uber-accurate ammo type. That uber-accurate ammo might be $10 per box ($.20 per round), but more likely at least $15 per box ($.30 per round). Could easily be the $20 per box ($.40 per round) ammo. No cheap, but way more cost effective per round than center fire ammo -- which could range from $1 to $2 per round. Or even $3 per round last year for factory ammo.

Something like a Kidd semi-auto or a similar priced bolt action makes more sense if you aren't will to shell out for great ammo. You can get Wolf Match Extra 22lr for $10 per box and shoot some really nice groups.

Vudoo is a nice rifle, and I've shot a few of them in steel match stages. I feel the 40X conversions are noticeably better guns, and jelrod's 40X rifles don't seem to have the feeding issues that plague some Vudoo and RimX rifles. I wouldn't go with a March scope -- it would be pretty far down on my list.

I’m just throwing out hypotheticals.

I have no idea what I would get, at this point I’m just thinking cost vs use.

Today I installed the lightweight Kidd barrel on the receiver of one of my 10/22 carbines; fitted the Kidd bolt handle and spring after many—sproing!—-attempts; pinned in the Timney trigger; and set the barrel and action into a Magpul Hunter X-22 stock.
Tonight I’m on the road so no pic until I get home; and of course haven’t shot it yet. I’ll have to stop thinking about it until next weekend.

My backup rifle for the Appleseed event will be the new CZ 457. I put Tech peep sights on it. Testing on that will also have to wait.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
Today I installed the lightweight Kidd barrel on the receiver of one of my 10/22 carbines ....

Please keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I’m just throwing out hypotheticals.
I have no idea what I would get, at this point I’m just thinking cost vs use.

From a practical standpoint, most people will do well with CZ bolt action, a reasonably priced quality scope along the lines of a Vortex Viper PST II, and Wolf or SK ammo. When in doubt, upgrade the ammo.

It takes additional manufacturing care and dollars to make an accurate semi auto 22lr. There's a certain amount of slop necessary in the chamber to facilitate reliable feeding. Doesn't matter if it's a Volquartsen, Kidd, TacSol, or JP.

A true test of a 22lr's accuracy is not at 50 yards, but well beyond 100 yards. Many 22s can produce decent groups at 50 yards, even a refrigerator trophy bug hole group once in a blue moon. Set targets at 150 or 200 yards -- one quickly finds out if the gun/ammo/shooter system is working.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
It would be very interesting to see how older guns like those compare in practical precision with newer rifles. But although it’s possible to get very good groups with proper targets using irons, optics obviously make a difference. I’ve resolved that I need to take my 52 to the range when the weather improves a bit just for that purpose.

And usncorpsman, that 20-shot group never fails to amaze me whenever I see it.

You might be surprised. Obviously in general, on a wide range of targets, optics will be much easier to shoot more accurately and precisely than irons. However, in traditional rimfire target disciplines, optics aren't as much of an advantage as you'd think.

Traditional rimfire target disciplines involve shooting targets with a black circular bullseye of one specific diameter at one specific distance.

This lets you use a very specialized type of iron sights. The rear sight is essentially a very refined peep sight, but the front sight is unusual. The front sight has a circular hood that visually fits just inside the rear peep, allowing very precise alignment between front and rear sights. Then, for actual aiming, the front sight hood holds an aperture insert - basically a little ring that sits inside the front sight hood. The aperture inserts come in a bunch of different sizes. The idea is that you select an aperture insert size so that given the target type and range in your chosen discipline, the bullseye just barely visually fits inside the front aperture.

The accuracy achievable with iron sights in this context is really astonishing.

To give you an idea how different all this is from "normal" iron sights, the standard high-end Anschutz target rear sight costs $600 (they also make a REALLY high end version that's about $1000) and the adjustment clicks are 1mm at 50m, which is about 1/15 MOA. They make a benchrest version, too, which has clicks of 0.5mm at 50m (about 1/30 MOA).

Wind doping becomes significant at 100 yards.

as "high end" I have in .22 LR.



Had the barrel turned down, setback and recrowned, trigger job, bolt jeweled and tuned at CT Precision Chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
The accuracy achievable with iron sights in this context is really astonishing.

Yes, it is. I am familiar with all that and still have a set of Redfield Mark 8 target irons myself from when I shot 50' smallbore competitively. But it’s one of those things many shooters don’t understand or appreciate, so thanks for your explanation. I am often struck by how commonly Internet reviewers showing their accuracy tests of firearms and ammunition use targets that are poorly designed for the purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Wind doping becomes significant at 100 yards.

Boy howdy. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug.
The gun and the ammo must also hold vertical well at distance -- this can take a fair amount of range time to determine what works.

When wind doping went well. Kimber sporter, 172 yards, winds 5-9 mph from my left, RWS Special Match, 5 shots, .8" vertical.
10" plate. According to notes and calculations, holds would have been from the hole on the plate at 9 o'clock to maybe a couple inches left of the plate.


Another time the stars were aligned. Kimber sporter, 243 yards, winds 5-12 from my left that day but didn't list details at the time of this group. 5 rounds, 1.7" vertical by 1.1" horizontal. 12" plate. Calculated wind drift would have been in the 12-18" ballpark.


Then there are all the mental pictures of where accuracy went to shit in the wind at distance. Vertical stringing up the wazoo, due to wind currents pushing bullets up and down. Plates missed horizontally, when drift changed 6-12" from shot to shot. Shooting from barriers or tripod, with the wind moving my body.

Even if it was because the gun gods happened to be paying attention and favored you, fritz ( ), those were some amazing results.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
The accuracy achievable with iron sights in this context is really astonishing.

Yes, it is. I am familiar with all that and still have a set of Redfield Mark 8 target irons myself from when I shot 50' smallbore competitively. But it’s one of those things many shooters don’t understand or appreciate, so thanks for your explanation. I am often struck by how commonly Internet reviewers showing their accuracy tests of firearms and ammunition use targets that are poorly designed for the purpose.

Sorry for the laborious explanation!

I shot 4-position smallbore at 50' as a teenager, it's a lot of fun.

I'm a decent pistol shot and pretty good at short-to-medium range with a rifle, and I credit it 100% to learning to line up the sights and pull the trigger by shooting tens of thousands of rounds of .22 as a kid. There's no substitute for practice and it's a lot easier to practice when each cartridge is 1/10 the cost.

It’s good to have things like using iron sights for smallbore shooting explained.
I’ve long since lost any track of how many shooters are involved in such sports today. I had a great experience in my teens as well with a program sponsored by the Army at Fort Leonard Wood where my father was stationed. Even made it to Camp Perry as part of the program one time.

My son was a 4 position shooter as well. Here's his rifle that I'm keeping for him until he moves into a new place at the end of the summer. He hasn't shot it in years, but wants to hang on to it for old times sake.



Lot of memories of my son, going to the gun club watching him shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:
From my rifle days.

Ooh, nice. Make/model?

Anschutz Model 54 Super Match
Older than 1965. 1965 the model became 1413

I also have another 1413. from 1965.
Also a 60s made Walther KKM II, a Martini MkII, and a 40x

there's no school like the old school

I have a 62 dated 54 action Anschutz
a handful of 52's
Win 75
Rem 513
Rem 540
REm 541x
Rem 37
H&R 12
just picked up a Martini

and am likely forgetting a few

with both Irons and Unertl/lymans for them

I have a left handed Anschutz Fortner (model 1827).

I dont have a hosting service, so no pics of mine to post.