I'm eyeing one of the 13.75" POF Rogue .308 ARs. The idea of a 6 pound AR in .308 appeals to me as a "do-all" defensive/hunting rifle.

However, I'm unsure about the 13" barrel. The loss of velocity isn't the concern, rather the short barrel combined with the Keymo muzzle brake.

I own/have owned some short(er) barreled .30s, including my 14" AK103k in 7.62x39 and a former 16" M1A, both with brakes. Muzzle blast on those is... spicy, but not necessarily unpleasant.

However, I've also shot some other short barrel rifles in various calibers where the muzzle blast is so concussive that it's unpleasant to shoot more than a few rounds.

(I will likely suppress this rifle at some point in the future, though I'm currently going to wait at least until the current Hearing Protection Act legislation shakes out. So that may eventually mitigate some of it.)


What has been your experience with short barrel 12/13/14 inch .308s, especially with muzzle brakes?

In for inputs. I desired a 308 SBR as well. Wound up with 300 BLK for cost vs use reasons. But never out of the game as I'd be willing to consolidate calibers.

The suppressed 16" 308 I have is extremely enjoyable. "hearing safe" if once forgot hearing protection at home. I'd be interested in a 12.5" 308, possibly CMMG or similar.

I've shot a few shorter barrel 308s in training courses. They are loud, as in really loud.

A 308 without a suppressor can produce noise levels in the 155-165 dB level, maybe more. Shorter barrels are generally louder than longer barrels. Muzzle brakes increase the noise levels to the shooter, likely by 5-10 dB, although some of the most effective brakes are supposedly close to 15 dB increase. Thus, a braked shorty 308 will likely have noise levels of at least 160 dB to the shooter, but probably closer to 170 dB. Maybe more.

Quality muffs plus plugs should reduce noise levels by 40 dB. Which means a braked SBR 308 isn't hearing safe, even with good ear pro.

I’m on the ‘way short’ end of the short .308 pool…my 5.5” HK51k is a loud flamethrower! I won’t try to suppress it…I can only guess how hot a can would get after just one mag. Super fun to shoot and a great attention getter at the range.

Conversely, the DD5V3 suppressed is staplegun-quiet. Night and day difference from the 51k!

I had a Ishapore SMLE in 308 cut to 16” once as a beater gun. Had the smith install sights and used it to hunt once with it, at the range it threw a fireball the size of a basketball and was obnoxiously loud. Loved it.

My buddy Josh bought it off me before I moved from NC.

Whenever someone mentions SBR 308, I always think to a buddy’s G3K with a sear. A 20 round mag dump was cracking open the gates of hell.


Which was loads of fun.

Currently using this as a short barreled .308, totally awesome. Especially with some RS Regulate parts.

https://modernwarriors.com/pro...FQkYPinuHatLSPp1ZxsT

I have an older POF P-308, 2012 model.
It's a 14.5" with pinned FH, I absolutely Love it!
It gets shot every other weekend and is my truck gun.

quote:

Originally posted by john crusher:
I have an older POF P-308, 2012 model.
It's a 14.5" with pinned FH

This is a similar concept, just on their newer small frame Rogue model.

It's a 13.75" barrel pinned with a Dead Air Keymo muzzle brake/suppressor mount in order to have an overall 16.1 barrel. So a short barrel, but not a SBR.



Funnily enough, and another thing that drew me to it, is that it actually has a longer handguard than their 16" Rogue model, which for some reason only has an 11" handguard:

Yup, got a Rogue too. Picked it up at my dealers the day that Frank Desomma passed 6/20/2020. I've also got a P-415 14.5" that has been with me since 2012. Cabelas had a deal with POF for ARs and mine are both the same color. Od Green with FDE Furniture, I figured I needed a matching Pair!

My 13" SCAR 17S SBR is an amazing "do-all" rifle. I've used it on wild pig hunts and shot it out to 700 yards. But it has the most brutal concussion of any rifle I own, so I shoot it suppressed a majority of the time.

It does put on a great fireball display without the can!

I'm also considering ponying up the extra ~$375 for their Revolution DI 16".

In exchange for the extra cost, an extra 0.7 pounds in weight, and an extra inch or so in overall length, I'd get a bit less blast, a billet (rather than forged) upper and lower, a rifle length gas systen (rather than mid), a further 1.5" of handguard length (14-15 is my preference), slightly higher velocity, and the ability to swap muzzle devices at will or even direct thread a suppressor.

I decided to go the more versatile route and picked up the 16" Revolution in Burnt Bronze.

It's 8.9 lbs with all the accessories shown, but without a mag. And 10.4 lbs with a loaded 20 round 7.62 PMAG.

So a little heavier than my 5.56 ARs, especially loaded. But still surprisingly lightweight for a billet .308 AR with a couple pounds worth of scope on it.

(Though if I had stuck with the original 13.75" Rogue, a similarly equipped rifle would have been even lighter at 8.2 unloaded/9.7 loaded.)

The most logical use-case for a shorty .308 that I could ever figure is a vehicle checkpoint. Someone working such a job would likely prefer something small, but would still need some extra power to go through vehicle skin or disable vehicle engines. Am I right in saying a short .308 would be a preferred option in this role, when compared to other calibers?

Possibly. But 5.56 punctures vehicle skin and automotive glass just fine. In fact, many of the bonded soft point LE duty loads are specifically designed for use through automotive windshields.

And vehicle skin is thin sheet metal... just about any caliber will penetrate it. Even light handgun rounds.

The only parts of a vehicle that rifle calibers wont penetrate are some portions of the engine block, and portions of the hardened steel frame like the pillars.

As to using a rifle to disable a vehicle, the best way to reliably disable a vehicle is to disable the driver, rather than trying to pump enough rounds into the engine in just the right places in an attempt to render it inoperable.


There are plenty of other logical use cases for a shorter and lighter .308 besides just vehicle checkpoints:
-Stalking/hunting on foot, especially with hog eradication
-LE duty rifle, especially for something like park ranger/game warden/rural settings
-Home defense, especially if you have some acreage
-Any .308 shooter who plans on adding a suppressor but doesn't want to end up with an overly long 24-26+ inch barrel length
-Etc.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

This kind of just ends up back in the .308 vs 5.56 weeds.

In all those applications you mentioned, is a short .308 really better than a 5.56 of equal or greater length (and less weight with more rounds)?

Where suppressors are concerned: IME, you need a pretty significant silencer to make a good difference on a .308. A proper "full size" .30 caliber silencer is needed. Even more so on a short barrel.

Then there's the ammo cost factor to boot.

There was this thread, a while back. Similar discussion. Went a little crazy.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/9600050905/p/1

Rogue I await your range report. I have been considering various.30 caliber rifles for a general purpose rifle. The Revolution DI peaked my interest. I’m currently leaning more towards a ROAM Rifles AR10 receiver set to have parts availability.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
This kind of just ends up back in the .308 vs 5.56 weeds.

In all those applications you mentioned, is a short .308 really better than a 5.56 of equal or greater length (and less weight with more rounds)?

Where suppressors are concerned: IME, you need a pretty significant silencer to make a good difference on a .308. A proper "full size" .30 caliber silencer is needed. Even more so on a short barrel.

Then there's the ammo cost factor to boot.

There was this thread, a while back. Similar discussion. Went a little crazy.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/9600050905/p/1

Yes that's certainly an interesting thought exercise.

My 13" SCAR 17S SBR suppressed is only 2 inches longer than my 16" SCAR 16S unsuppressed. With near-identical setups on optics/lights/cans/accessories the weight difference between them is about 2-3oz when unloaded.

Having shot many hogs with both at ~150 yards, the .308 wound channels are dramatically different than 5.56. Which is what you would expect when comparing the energy between the two at that distance: ~1600 ft-lbs with .308 vs ~900 ft-lbs with the 5.56.

So, for this hunting anecdote at least, the performance advantage of the 13" SCAR 17S over the 16" 16S is substantial.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Brett B,

That is a good real-life example, Brett.

I suppose the capacity on-board, the overall ammo weight, and the recoil isn't a hindrance, in that particular application.

And, playing off that other thread, would you opt for the shorty .308 in a general purpose combat context?

quote:

Originally posted by JonDaddy82:
Currently using this as a short barreled .308, totally awesome. Especially with some RS Regulate parts.

https://modernwarriors.com/pro...FQkYPinuHatLSPp1ZxsT

I think that’s the best option available for a shorter than 14” P&W .308 option. Non-proprietary mags, AK reliability but with updated ergos, charging handle location superior to AR types (slightly better than Scar even), overbuilt level of robustness without being overtly heavy, operating system allows for folding brace for true compactness/ portability, and at around $1,7XX way better on cost than many other piston options.