I saw this advertised in the NRA magazine and it caught my attention. I don’t know if there are other similar products, but it’s the first time I’ve seen anything like it.

In addition to the basic aiming and night vision capabilities, what attracted me is its apparent simplicity: everything’s all together at a not-outrageous price. I can see how more advanced options offer much greater capabilities, but I envision this as just for limited situations in which I’d like to be able to engage relatively close targets in the dark.

So, I’m interested in the comments by the experienced authorities on the forum. Thanks for all replies.

https://holosun.com/products/r...drs/drs-nv.html#Tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blDecGUPD5E&t=6s

In my limited experience using night vision, my question is:

How are you going to navigate? Shoulder your rifle the whole time?

Everything isn't all together as they claim, they even say, outside of optimal moonlight, you will need additional illumination.

So, as much as I love Holosun products, this appears to be an expensive RDS rather than cheap NV capabilities. I'll think about it, these opinions are at first glance, but I can't see this being anything other than a niche use tool, more likely a, "Man I wish I had just bought something else from the get go".

Sounds like a really bashing post, but I do see this unit fitting maybe shooting rodents. Maybe. Maybe shooting some critters at night. Outside of that I don't see it offering much.

My question, to better answer your intended use, what kind of targets. If it's animals I would assume the would be discovered using white light. As navigating while shouldering the rifle would be impractical. If they are 2-legged, identifying by pointing the weapon at them isn't a solution so you'd need white light for that ID also. At which point, for either type of target, it wouldn't make sense to try to go back to NV for the shot.

Taken from their website...

"Verify your local and/or state laws before attaching and IR illumination device to a firearm with a night vision device."

That seems like a very specific law for a place to have. I guess it doesn't surprise me though, considering the zany stuff they do in places like CA, NY, MA, etc.

I agree with Otto. Things like the Sionyx Opsin, which is regarded as the best digital night vision, are not even on par with mid-grade GenIII analog night vision. The Opsin is a large (compared to this Holosun sight) dedicated unit with a large remote battery pack. There's really no way even a fraction of that performance could be on board that sight.

But, as the OP said, if it satisfies the user's needs, then it is certainly a viable option. I'd think it's application in a "tactical" context would be limited.

There’s been some discussion of this sight in my night vision group and the consensus/conclusion so far is this would really only have much utility in a few very limited scenarios, one of which is on a rifle kitted for night vision where the shooter has a PVS14 over his non-dominant eye and shooting in a passive role. This would be purely for aided ID other target. There was some talk of it being useful on an HD gun for surprises in the middle of the night, but it probably needs more ambient light than would useful for that situation. There’s just not a lot of scenarios we could think of where the user wouldn’t be better equipped with almost any other kind of night vision device than this, but that maya be a result of bias.

It needing moonlight, or some level of ambient light isn’t surprising, but the way Holosun describes it, it requires a lot more than a Gen 2 or Gen 3 analog image intensifier would. So basically, first Gen equivalent tech, which is of extremely limited use. It’s impressive they got it down into something that small, but I’m still of the opinion that for most purposes, digital night vision just isn’t there yet. Digital thermal would be far more useful, which they have coming out in a sight, but it’s still going to be niche uses.

Night Vision is a super power that has come of age. Any night vision capability is better than no night vision capability.

And I’m a white phos snob.

quote:

Any night vision capability is better than no night vision capability.

No argument there.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

Any night vision capability is better than no night vision capability.

No argument there.

100%, maybe the better message instead of my post earlier, but probably not what Sigfreund is looking for, is that this $1100+ dollars would be much better applied to more serviceable NV options.

As an example, a sightmark wraith and Holosun 510 would be comparable and maybe even cheaper than this unit but offer 10x the utility. You lose that simplicity of all in one package but I also think it's a detriment to this unit.

Okay, thanks. These were the responses I was hoping for.

Disregarding the Holosun entirely, is there a NV device that I could use in conjunction with an Aimpoint Comp M5 that would give me the ability to see and aim at a target when it would be too dark to see something like a cardboard target against a brown dirt berm at 50 to 100 yards?

This would be in the most common American situation in which there is some sky or other background illumination, not no-moon, dense overcast, 20 miles from the nearest desert one-horse town or highway dark. It’s also not for patrolling in a hostile environment or even hunting (but that’s okay if it could be used for those purposes).

And what if the target was still radiating heat from being exposed to some sort of source? Would some sort of thermal sight be better?

And I’m hoping for something that wouldn’t replace a sight, but would rather be usable in conjunction with one that would normally stay mounted. Is that even a possibility?

All that’s sort of vague, so if I need to be more specific, please let me know.
I know there has been much discussion here of various night vision/thermal devices, but I don’t know enough to even know what I’m looking at.

And again thanks for all replies.

You might consider saving up for a PVS14. You can weapon mount it the way you're describing, and it'll have waaaaaay more versatility than other weapon-mounted options down the line.

Okay, that's the sort of information I'm seeking.

I realize my broad question may be like, "What scope should I get for my rifle," so even a single specific examples or two would be a big help.

Regarding the PVS14 that I just searched for, how difficult is something like that to use with a "head or helmet" mount (as one site mentions) and then aiming a rifle; i.e., it's not mounted on the rifle?

Well, maybe ignore me. At least where the PVS14 weapon mounting is concerned.

The military equipment comes with a weapon mount, but apparently the intensifier tube can become blemished by the recoil impulse. I would not recommend anyone doing something that is known to hasten intensifier damage. I guess the military doesn't care, because they can replace a damaged unit easier than we can.

The one site I looked at did mention mounting their PVS14 on a rifle.

If there was concern about being attacked by IDPA targets in the dark, I would think it might be best to be able to put on a helmet with the device mounted for that limited engagement rather than having it on a rifle all the time. (Unless one had a dedicated setup for that possibility alone.)

Now that my interest has finally been piqued in the subject, it's obvious I have much to learn, so thanks for any advice.

I don’t know if it’s still offered these days, but back in the day GGG had a detachable mount for PVS14s that mounted the NV behind the Aimpoint. It was all the rage for many years. IIRC it ran off of a quick detach mount.

There are a million of these still offered today. For a long time I had a twist mount version that mated to the aimpoint base. But in any case TNVC, Sampson, and a bunch of others offer this if it is of interest to anyone.

A write-up from someone at TNVC...

https://www.ar15.com/forums/in...our-head/209-286199/

The potential for recoil damage combined with the potential for dot burn-in certainly kills it for me.

I thought it might be viable for you, but it seems it's a bad idea. That being said, you'd be on-the-hook for head-mount equipment, which kicks the price up at least four or five hundred bucks.

So, maybe we're back to square one. The PVS14 recommendation already more than doubled the money, and adding to it isn't going to help.

When you're researching this stuff, make sure you take note of when things were written. Prices on a lot of this stuff has about doubled, in the last seven or eight years. A great example is the stand-alone IR aiming laser. I have four Steiner OTAL-C IR lasers, because they used to cost about $400 new, with second-hand ones bringing between $250 and $300. It seems they've now been discontinued, with the last MSRP being about $850. That's not to say I'd be able to turn mine for any sort of profit though, because no one cares for them anymore. They were popular because they were affordable; now anyone in the market will ignore an option like that, because the performance you get at that inflated price sucks, and you may as well save up another $850, and get into a MFAL of some kind.

Man, the NVG thing is a slippery slope. A guy I shoot with sometimes recently took the plunge. He does alright for himself, so he wasn't necessarily bargain-hunting, but he wasn't no-holds-barred either. He spent between eight and nine thousand dollars on his setup (PVS14 with all the associated items).

P220Smudge keeps pretty good tabs on the used market. He's made me aware of some pretty sweet buys.

The price you pay to get into night vision stuff is insane. I think it's worth every penny, but maybe that Holosun unit you originally posted, combined with an IR illuminator, will get you doing what you currently want to be doing.

I still believe something I said in the beginning of the NV thread holds true, for some of us in the firearms/shooting "hobby": It's an expensive hobby, and there's a lot of folks who won't think twice about spending $1000+ on another rifle or pistol they will hardly ever shoot. You forego four or five of those purchases, and you've got a complete PVS14 system. The practicality and hobby enjoyment you'll get out of that far exceeds another five guns sitting in the safe.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

Man, the NVG thing is a slippery slope.

This is accurate, I'd say my investment, PVS-14, Helmet set-up, accessories, and LAM, all total is approx. $10K.

I could have done it way cheaper sure, but I'm happy with it and it'll last me a lifetime.

Sigfreund, do you have a budget in mind? Do you strongly prefer weapon mounted or does it HAVE to be weapon mounted. Where are you planning on shooting, what type of terrain? (this may help determine if thermal or NV is better). Is this for purposeful planned hunting/shooting, or in case you ever need it type deal.

I find one of the biggest positives to owning NV is how useful it is outside of shooting applications. Like P220Smudge guided me, they are excellent for stargazing, enjoying the outdoors at night, just basic casual use. AND they are a game changer if ever needed in conjunction with a firearm for defensive or offensive purposes.

With all that said, if you don't mind, give us some more of your thoughts on what you would like to be able to do with this. Maybe we can narrow down what fits your desires.

This is something I haven’t had much interest in before and therefore haven’t made any attempt to educate myself about. Even the briefest exposure, though, makes it clear how complex the subject it, and that’s part of the reason I’m so ignorant.

To admit it, though, a big part of my interest at this time is a vague feeling that I ought to know more. I also don’t want even to dip my toes into the waters by purchasing something that I’m going to immediately be dissatisfied with, gets put in a box someplace, and is a source of annoyance whenever I think of it. A total of 10K for everything necessary to repel the commie airborne forces would be a bit much (for now) because there are other reasons why that’s not something I want to be able to do. $4000, however, didn’t strike me as outrageous if it’s top tier gear. I have spent more than that on riflescopes that really don’t give me four times the capability of others.

What would I use it for? Other than driving the back roads in my rural county seeing what’s out at night, I’d simply like more ability to see and engage targets under low light conditions. I have equipped myself and trained to a degree to do that under some conditions, but I’m intrigued by the possibility of something more.

And since I’m asking questions, I’m unclear about how such devices are used on firearms. I assume that sights like Aimpoints that have “night vision” settings are designed to be placed in front of the device: look through the device, see the otherwise invisible reticle, and aim normally. But can the same device be mounted and used in front of a precision rifle scope? Perhaps that’s another demonstration of my ignorance, but if a good device could be used both ways that could make my decisions easier.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
This is something I haven’t had much interest in before and therefore haven’t made any attempt to educate myself about. Even the briefest exposure, though, makes it clear how complex the subject it, and that’s part of the reason I’m so ignorant.

To admit it, though, a big part of my interest at this time is a vague feeling that I ought to know more. I also don’t want even to dip my toes into the waters by purchasing something that I’m going to immediately be dissatisfied with, gets put in a box someplace, and is a source of annoyance whenever I think of it. A total of 10K for everything necessary to repel the commie airborne forces would be a bit much (for now) because there are other reasons why that’s not something I want to be able to do. $4000, however, didn’t strike me as outrageous if it’s top tier gear. I have spent more than that on riflescopes that really don’t give me four times the capability of others.

What would I use it for? Other than driving the back roads in my rural county seeing what’s out at night, I’d simply like more ability to see and engage targets under low light conditions. I have equipped myself and trained to a degree to do that under some conditions, but I’m intrigued by the possibility of something more.

And since I’m asking questions, I’m unclear about how such devices are used on firearms. I assume that sights like Aimpoints that have “night vision” settings are designed to be placed in front of the device: look through the device, see the otherwise invisible reticle, and aim normally. But can the same device be mounted and used in front of a precision rifle scope? Perhaps that’s another demonstration of my ignorance, but if a good device could be used both ways that could make my decisions easier.

I think you could be better off than 98% of people with a 4K budget. Some GEN 2.5 or even GEN 3 Green Phosphorus, get some deals used, it's definitely doable.

Typically, with head mounted NV, you run passive and active aiming devices. Active aiming with a LAM seems to generally be the No. 1 option, but also busts your budget a little bit. You may still be well served with an IR light down the road, like a Surefire V-series though. With passive aiming through a red dot or EOtech that features NV compatible brightness settings.

I can hold my Kahles up in front of the PVS-14 and at 1x, its quite useable. With magnification however it starts to get less than optimal, and at the high end its unusable.

The mounting options, while being quite varied are pretty straight forward, some may disagree, but I feel mounting a NV to the weapon (if its your only one) is the worst way to go. As mentioned previously regarding navigation and target ID requiring shouldering your rifle.

For you, to get the most use, a GP PVS-14 with a simple head mount set-up would offer you the widest range of use, (assuming you have a NV capable red dot or holographic sight).

If your intended purpose was setting up in a field for coyotes, hogs, etc. I'd say a weapon-mounted sight would serve you best. It excels in that regard. It's unfortunate there isn't a best for all uses between thermal and NV. You lose something either way.

Given what you've described I definitely think NV is the way to go, head mounted would be ideal, and can be done within your budget, perhaps not EASILY done, but with a little patience and luck for sure.

These are very simple breakdowns of NV and thermal, admittedly with a little opinion thrown in. Once we start getting into specs and everything else involved it can get a tad overwhelming. However, as members did with me, I'm excited to help out based off what I've learned so far. As members saved me making those regrettable purchases you mentioned. So any thoughts or questions you have feel free to ask.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OttoSig,

quote:

I find one of the biggest positives to owning NV is how useful it is outside of shooting applications. Like P220Smudge guided me, they are excellent for stargazing, enjoying the outdoors at night, just basic casual use.

IMO, there are very few uses for NVG outside militaristic applications. Have I taken mine camping, and peered into the woods around the campsite with it? Yeah. Have I looked up at the night sky and been impressed by the starts with it? Yeah. I am not sure what one might consider a "basic casual use" for night vision. The point is to be able to see in the dark without being seen yourself. Outside of militaristic and hunting applications, there's little need for that element of "stealth". The way I understand it they're mostly illegal to hunt with, outside of pig/coyote management so... that leaves us with the military, LE, search/rescue, and the prepared civilian contexts. IMO, and I am not implying that Otto and Smudge are of this attitude, the stargazing and other recreational use stuff is what some people have come up with to tell folks, when they're confronted by someone who says "why the heck do you need night vision?".

In the about seven years I've owned night vision, I can count in probably single digits, the number of minutes I have spent using night vision outside of the context it was designed and intended for: moving around without projecting visible light and seeing/engaging things in the dark with a weapon in a militaristic context.

None of us bought this stuff for stargazing or hiking. Are they cool side effects? Sure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

I find one of the biggest positives to owning NV is how useful it is outside of shooting applications. Like P220Smudge guided me, they are excellent for stargazing, enjoying the outdoors at night, just basic casual use.

IMO, there are very few uses for NVG outside militaristic applications. Have I taken mine camping, and peered into the woods around the campsite with it? Yeah. Have I looked up at the night sky and been impressed by the starts with it? Yeah. I am not sure what one might consider a "basic casual use" for night vision. The point is to be able to see in the dark without being seen yourself. Outside of militaristic and hunting applications, there's little need for that element of "stealth". The way I understand it they're mostly illegal to hunt with, outside of pig/coyote management so... that leaves us with the military, LE, search/rescue, and the prepare civilian contexts. IMO, and I am not implying that Otto and Smudge are of this attitude, the stargazing and other recreational use stuff is what some people have come up with to tell folks, when they're confronted by someone who says "why the heck do you need night vision?".

In the about seven years I've owned night vision, I can count in probably single digits, the number of minutes I have spent using night vision outside of the context it was designed and intended for: moving around without projecting visible light and seeing/engaging things in the dark with a weapon in a militaristic context.

None of us bought this stuff for stargazing or hiking. Are they cool side effects? Sure.

I put mine on when I want to walk my dog at night, if I want to walk her on paths in the woods, I 'm not using a flashlight, I use the NV.

And you must not live in Florida or Texas, cause hog and raccoon hunting is some of the most fun stuff I've done. This is the reason I bought mine.

If you're buying it to have in the event the world ends, okay, sure, probably better served buying more water or water purification. But if you can find other uses for it until the Norks come over here, that makes spending several $K easier to swallow.

Your post came across a little judgemental, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I think you are just trying to paint a certain picture for Sigfreund.

OF COURSE we all have them for when the world ends. I'm not trying to catch a glimpse of the elusive snow leopard with mine, but I DO use mine for many things outside of militaristic applications. I do that enough at work, I like to enjoy my off time in other ways.