Wondering if any of you are using one of the Horus reticles--specifically the newer H58, H59 or Tremor2/3?

It seems like a potential good idea to eliminate dialing and save time especially if making follow-up shots at range and/or engaging multiple targets at various ranges. Some very thoughtful wind correction capabilities are also built in to it. It does, however, look incredibly busy. Additionally, the models listed above are all in mill radians meaning a transition that is probably not fun if all you know is moa.

Maybe this is the question - If you are using this scope what do you use it for and how is it working for you?

And a bonus question - If you could pick any scope for long-range shooting (600-1000+ yards) that you would actually want to use, what scope would you choose? As this is likely an academic question, cost should not be a limiting factor to your answer.

Henryrifle

That type of reticle is way to busy and distracting to me. It is useful for shooting at extreme distances where wind really plays a factor but I'll never be in a hurry and would just as soon dial in my windage.

I can answer your bonus question as I went all in last year and ordered my holy grail scope that will last me a lifetime of long range shooting no matter what rifle I have at the time. A Vortex Razor gen 2 4.5-27x with the ebr-1c mrad reticle. I waited almost 20 years to treat myself to a scope of this quality and don't regret it one bit.

Any scope?

Easy. Tangent theta.

quote:

Originally posted by exx1976:
Any scope?

Easy. Tangent theta.

This, best glass available period!

Shot rifles with Horus reticles. Problem for me the reticle covers up too much, couldn't spot impacts/hits....

Jus228, NEVER dial wind!

I'm well aware of Tangent Theta. They are located in Halifax and I'm sure they do not make their own glass; they buy it from somewhere, probably Europe. I'm sure their scopes are topnotch.

My friends on the Canadian rifle team told me about them a few years back, as a new riflescope manufacturer getting ready to introduce new products on the market. They currently max out at 25X, which is inadequate for my needs, but I'm hopeful they will introduce higher magnification models at some point.

I'm not a fan of the Horus-type reticles. They're too busy for me. A clean, simple reticle is easier to spot both my impacts and those of others. A good simple reticle works for hold unders, hold overs, and windage.

MOA vs. mil thinking is over blown. Choose one system and you'll get used to thinking in the angular values for that system. Say, 2.3 mils or 12.5 MOA of elevation -- they're both just numbers. You should use a ballistics program to calculate the angular values, and thus ignore the "14 inches at 450 yards" type thinking.

Elevation values will be specific to your rifle. Windage values can be fairly similar between various rifles and calibers, therefore in steel match competitions I learned to think in wind speed values. In other words, I tell a buddy that I needed to hold for a 7 mph cross wind, rather than a 2 MOA hold off. He may be using a more efficient bullet and using a mil scope, but 7 mph of wind will make total sense according to his ballistic table.

I've never fondled or shot using a Tangent Theta scope, but I've heard they are tremendous. Most of my scopes are Nightforce FFP models. Not the best, not the worst, but they work for me. There are a number of quality scopes on the market, and I recommend your looking through a particular model before buying it. Better yet, shoot a buddy's rifle with that scope model on it before buying one.


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Jus228 -- I only dial windage on movers stages in competition when the wind hold is greater than the movement hold. Let's say with no wind a mover needs 6 MOA of lead, so it's a 6 MOA lead in both directions. For a wind value of 4 MOA, that means I'll hold 2 MOA with the wind and 10 MOA against the wind. Got to think about that, but it's doable.

With a 10 MOA wind I would have to hold -4 MOA with the wind and 16 MOA against the wind -- which is a total pain in the butt. In this case I'd dial 10 MOA of wind, hold 6 MOA in both directions for movement, and hope the wind doesn't change too much in the couple minutes of that stage.

Generally, wind changes from one moment to the next, and we need to adapt to those quick changes via our reticles. In the time it takes to dial the windage, the wind may have changed.

As I reread what I said, I can't recall ever actually dialing windage. What I meant to say was when you dial in correct elevation and you hold for windage the target isn't hanging out in empty space anyway you can use your horizontal reticle for the hold.

I personally won't ever encounter a time where I'll be in enough of a hurry where you are holding for windage *and* elevation. If you do that frequently, than a Horus reticle would suit you well.

quote:

Originally posted by Jus228:
I personally won't ever encounter a time where I'll be in enough of a hurry where you are holding for windage *and* elevation. If you do that frequently, than a Horus reticle would suit you well.

I have shot stages in steel/tactical matches where time constraints are so tight that on multiple targets you can't dial elevations. Thus, we hold both elevation and windage. Generally I dial elevation to a middle distance target, then hold over the far ones and hold under the close targets. Horus-type reticles help with the hold overs, but I think my standard reticle works better for the hold unders.

Yes, this means holding out in open space. Not optimal, but with a little practice it can be effective for targets of reasonable size.

At last year's Battle of Breakneck PRS match, I had to hold off into space for the 1 mile side match. I needed 85 MOA of elevation, but my scope topped out at 58 or 59 MOA. So I dialed 55 MOA elevation, held another 30 MOA of elevation, and held 8-10 MOA of wind. I didn't win the mile side match by any means, but I did hit the 30" plate two out of five tries, with my three misses landing right and left of the target due to missed wind calls.

My scopes have the Gen 2 XR reticle, same used on this Tangent Theta. Able to do very fast elevation holds with the "Christmas" tree. Not too busy that it gets in my way. Reticle thickness is perfect for my needs.

http://www.armament.com/tt525p

I've been using a Bushnell ERS/HDMR scope with H59 for close to 5 years now and have shot dozens of deer and well over a hundred hogs with it. I recently sent my ERS scope back to Bushnell and they upgraded me to the 2017 HDMR and they asked me if I wanted to stay with the H59 or go with their G2 reticle...I stayed with the H59. For me it's much easier to estimate range as the MIL marks are clearly defined. MIL dots don't give me the precision that thin lines do and the wind dots do help out with holds as they eliminate guessing from holding in empty space. Granted I haven't shot past 600yds, which is the farthest that most ranges go out to in my area. I seem to be in the minority here but it works just fine for me. I just wish that Bushnell would add some illumination to the Horus reticles as in low light for hunting it becomes worthless.

I have Horus reticles (don’t recall the exact models at this moment) in two Leupolds, a Mark 6 3-18×44mm sight and Mark 4 spotting scope, and I find them useful. Like anything different, of course, the busy grid does require becoming accustomed to. Because of their expense and rarity, I strongly suspect that very few people who don’t personally own a scope with a Horus reticle truly know what it’s like to use them.

Shortly after I got the Mark 6 scope I used it on a Sako TRG-22 (308) for a long distance LE sniper course. Although the practical shoots weren’t as demanding as the multitarget competitions we read about here, they did require locating and engaging targets quickly at different ranges and in settings that made them difficult to see. I had my ballistics table available, and it was simply a matter of holding the elevation using the Horus. I did well by my lights (and the instructor’s). After that I did a fair amount of long distance shooting as far as 1000+ yards and was happy with the Horus. I did not have significantly more difficulty spotting my hits than with a less busy reticle.

I later acquired the spotting scope, and that has seen more use than the scope on the Sako (I don’t shoot that rifle as much these days). It is very useful when a friend and I spot for each other and to be able to say with confidence, “You hit 0.1 mil left and 0.3 mil low.” The shooter decides how to respond to that report, but it’s definitely better than, “You’re just a little left and close to half a mil low, but not quite.” It’s also very nice to look at a group and say, “You’re 1.3 mil left and 0.7 mil low,” regardless of the target distance or other measurements. The actual distance of the group from the point of aim and the target distance don’t matter: Just note the mil distances and dial 13 clicks right and 7 clicks up.

Added: Another thing that occurred to me in reading some of the other discussions here is that when it’s possible to accurately spot bullet impact, corrected follow up shots can be made easily without breaking one’s shooting position. It’s not necessary to look up, find the adjustment knob(b), and all that. It’s also faster. How important all that is depends on the situation, but it can be an advantage.

When shooting rather than spotting or zeroing, the Horus grid reticle is obviously more useful for the shooter who wants to hold off rather than dial her adjustments. I have become much more comfortable with dialing over time, but there are pros and cons to both methods.

When dialing it’s possible to lose count (although calibrated dials help), and the accuracy of that method is obviously dependent on the accuracy of the adjustment tracking. I don’t know that that’s much of an issue with higher tier sights these days, but it’s something to be aware of. I still see advice to check the calibration of a new sight to ensure that something like a 10 MOA adjustment doesn’t actually move the reticle 10.8 MOA, and if it does the shooter needs to make note and compensate. That strikes me as unsatisfactory to say the least. The other possible tracking error is for five clicks to equal 0.48 mil once and 0.52 the next time. There’s no correcting for such errors, and if someone suspects that’s happening with his scope, he might prefer to use a calibrated reticle and change his point of aim for different shots.

The disadvantage of many Horus reticles is that they do partially obscure a large part of the field of view. I wouldn’t recommend one for snap shooting although some designs are less of a problem than others. The other problem is that just as it’s possible to miscount when dialing an adjustment, it’s possible to misread the reticle when holding off the point of aim. If you’re supposed to hold 2.5 mils high and you use the 3.5 mil mark as the point of aim, expect a miss. I’ve done that a few times and of course the lesson is Pay Attention! and don’t get sloppy. At the higher magnifications the reticle markings are clear and even labeled with numbers so there’s no more excuse for misreading the reticle than for miscounting an adjustment.

That said, though, one other issue is that to realize the full benefits of a Horus reticle it must be installed in a first focal plane sight. That in turn means that the reticle size changes with the magnification. In my Mark 6 scope the finer reticle markings become too small to be seen at the lowest magnification, and that’s necessary to prevent the reticle from becoming too coarse at full power. (That’s not such an issue in the spotting scope, but its zoom range is only 12-40×, or ~1:3+; the magnification range of the Mark 6 is 1:6.)

I have several other sights I use for long distance shooting, but only one with a Horus reticle. I appreciate its features, but am not planning to buy a scope with another unless I were to change my shooting habits. Now that I’ve become comfortable with relying on dialing my elevation adjustments I no longer feel quite so enamored of the Horus, especially when considering their cost. But I wouldn’t discourage anyone who likes the concept to take the plunge.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,