quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
My 300 win mag with a good recoil pad and custom brake is a pussy cat to shoot. I could shoot it all day long if I need too. Launching 180's downrange. Just say'in

Anything that can be done on paper and steel out to 1000 yards with a 300WM can be done better with a standard-length action 6.5mm or 6mm bore.

Just sayin'

Right frtz, if that is the projectile you desire. Some of us do not. Does not make either of us right or wrong. Just different. Kind of like being "better" too.
Whether you like it or not or agree or not. There is a reason that many prefer to shoot a .30 cal at longer range's. And yes I know all of your arguments for the six.
You do not hear me bashing it. It is not everyone's gig though, whether you like it or not. So there is that.

Each time I choose to post in one of these threads you chime in like I hate the sixes. I do not. I do not say that a .30cal is better at distance than them either. But you always have to make it sounds like I am saying a thirty is better than your six for your beloved competitions. I could care less about them to be honest. I am glad you love it and are very good at it with your choice of caliber. That is all there is too it.
I will take my barrel burner (.243 win) according to you that is sixty years old and my .30 cals and be more than content.
I am not you, nor are you me. Different needs. I can shoot distances with out issue. I fill my freezer so I am not on the clock or measuring distance on hits either with with a six. What you do is important to you and a six is what you choose. That is great and I am happy that it works well for you.

quote:

Originally posted by IntrepidTraveler:
Both factory and handload. like to load, but I'm somewhat space-compromised right now.

This is far apart from what you're looking at! The two calibers I'd suggest for what you are wanting to is a 6BR or a 6.5x47. Both are ridiculous easy to load/tune. Both inherently very accurate, especially the 6BR. Factory ammo is available for both, not cheap, but the same price per round as decent 300WM or 300PRC ammo.

If I were forced to have just one caliber shooting to 1000yds, 6BR would be a very easy choice. And if I were mostly punching paper at 100-300yds, not competing, would be on a single shot action.


What inherit accuracy, silly easy to to tune looks like! Chambered a 6BR over 5yrs ago. New barrel, loaded brass out of the box, no prep. Zero'd the scope good enough with with a few shots, next five shots.

If interested in the above suggestions, glad to help.

I am reading and learning. Which I can never do enough of. I appreciate everyone's help and knowledge!

Some reading!

https://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html
https://www.accurateshooter.co...tridge-guides/65x47/
https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek084.html

Note the 2nd to last picture in Zak Smith's article.

Yours truly from the same spot a little closer to the tree about 6yrs ago shooting a 6.5x47 fritz knows this spot in Logan New Mexico.

I used to drive thru Logan all the time! Ate at the Subway there a few times, gassed up there frequently. That was my "back way" from where I was working Hobbs NM back home to Denver. One of the two times I was ever stopped for a roadside sobriety checkpoint was one of these trips at the middle-of-nowhere intersection east of Springer NM.

The OP stated he will be shooting paper, which implies a desire for accuracy. He doesn’t intend to shoot at steel, doesn’t intend to compete, and made no mention of hunting. The Barrett he noted can be described as a tactical-type rifle – more suited for competition and target practice, and poorly suited for hunting.

Assuming the OP places a high value on accuracy, his rifle system choices are critical. Just like most of us at the initial stages of precision shooting, he does not yet know what he doesn’t know. A high-energy magnum caliber isn’t necessary for his purposes of punching holes in paper. Actually, it’s counter productive for his develop his shooting technique.

Heavy recoil hinders accurate shooting. It’s always been that way, and it will never change. Ongoing equipment and ammo development has proven that at reasonable distances, 6mm and 6.5mm standard-length chamberings will outperform 30-caliber magnums in accuracy, elevation requirements, and windage requirements.

Reduced recoil allows the shooter to keep sights on target all the way through the recoil cycle. The shooter can much more easily spot his own bullet impacts and see his own bullet trace. This allows for better feedback to the shooter, faster followup shots, more positive corrections for errors in technique, and faster corrections for wind changes.

Precision rifle matches are a better standard than hunting for judging the best equipment for punching holes in paper targets. And the OP is looking for a paper puncher.

To date, I have only competed with 6.5CM and 308Win bolt actions. I recently acquired a 6CM upper, but I don’t have enough time on it yet for competition use. I have shot a number 6mm bore rifles in practice to get a good feel for their function in target shooting. I’ve also shot a number of 30-cal and 338-cal magnum rifles in training. My experience shows that without exception, a smaller bore and less powder in the case promotes more accurate and more pleasant target shooting.

And let’s not forget, the OP is interested in paper target shooting, with primary distances of 100-300 yards. He has no need for excess bullet energy on target. He needs the bullet to get to the target quickly -- to minimize elevation requirements and wind effects. If the bullet has enough energy to put a hole in paper, then he's good to go.

***
Along this line, offgrid has wisely suggested that the OP consider a rifle chambered in 6BR. This is an excellent suggestion – the 6BR is shockingly accurate, produces really low recoil, is easy to shoot, has decent barrel life, and performs well at the OP’s intended distances of target shooting.

And let’s not forget, the OP is interested in paper target shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by IntrepidTraveler:
I used to drive thru Logan all the time! Ate at the Subway there a few times, gassed up there frequently. That was my "back way" from where I was working Hobbs NM back home to Denver. One of the two times I was ever stopped for a roadside sobriety checkpoint was one of these trips at the middle-of-nowhere intersection east of Springer NM.

I too was stopped in Springer! On the way home from an October match. Driving a pickup, Colorado plates...checking for illegal hunting. Ate at the Subway many times too. Owner of the Subway extends her hours for the competitors. Only safe place to eat in town!

Steel Safari matches are held at the Blue Steel Ranch 15 minutes SSW of Logan. John Paul of JP Rifles bought the ranch several years ago. JP has training classes there now too. Good friend, fellow competitive shooter is their head instructor. Zak Smith of Thunderbeast/Compettion Dynamics has been running the matches for there for many years, since early 2000 I believe. Beautiful place to shoot in October, not so much in June, brutally hot for this high altitude mountain guy!

I'll just throw this out there;

A couple years ago I wanted to build a long-ish range AR-10 type to do the same type shooting as you outlined, but due to osteoporosis, I needed a lighter recoiling rifle. After some lurking around I was thinking 260 Remington.

After getting some opinions here (like you are) Fritz steered me to the 6.5 Creedmoor as it has a bit more case capacity.
I'm a reloader too so I really wasn't too concerned about price per round, but recoil and barrel life were concern even though this was going to be a "no expense spared build".

I ended up with a Sharps "Jack" receiver set, JP Enterprise cryo'd 22" stainless barrel, heat-sink (which is about 4" short to cover all the barrel under the handguard), bolt, muzzle device, handguard and captured recoil assembly, Geissele 3.5/2-stage trigger and Leupold 8-24x50 ELR. By the time, I got a thousand projectiles, brass, powder & dies I had right at $5,500 in it, and I assembled it myself.

So far I've only shot it out to 480 yards at a friends farm, but was consistently shooting groups of 2.4" to 2.6" ... this year I hope to stretch out to 7-800 yards and build to 1000.

The recoil is mild enough to easily shoot 50-60 rounds a day, which would be "babying the barrel". To say I'm satisfied, is an understatement ... the knowledge in this form, and the way the way that info is freely shared is amazing.

I liked the Cartridge so well I re-barreled my SiG SSG-3000 to 6.5 Creedmoor with a stainless Benchmark barrel which is also cryo'd ... but next time I think I'll try a Keriger(but only because JP Enterprise doesnt offer one)



I modified the lower jaw from from a plastic skull and 2 years later still haven't gotten it painted or even permanently attached to a mag

A .30 cal is so much more versatile. As far as accuracy. Our armed services have sniped enemy combatants with .30cal at great distances for a long time now.
For those who think .30 cal. has unbearable recoil or recoil that is prohibitive of accuracy I have a .300 win mag by Weatherby with a 26" barrel. A custom brake and limbsaver recoil that easier on recoil than my .243.

Again, I am not saying it is better for the op's requirements. But is certainly would give him more flexibility is terms of the rifles capabilities.

Remember, he isn't planning to compete with it.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
A .30 cal is so much more versatile. As far as accuracy. Our armed services have sniped enemy combatants with .30cal at great distances for a long time now.

Well heck, I guess there's never a reason to switch to something else. Regardless if it's more accurate, or does the job with less cost or recoil.

On a similar note, the armed services should have stayed with Sherman tanks -- who needs an Abrams. The Grumman Wildcat worked -- why the waste money on jet propulsion, stealth, avionics, heat seeking missiles, guided bombs. The jeep worked OK -- ixnay Humvees, and especially MRAPs.

Time marches forward, technology and applications change.

Pick your type and distance of targets -- especially 100-300 yards, where the OP plans to do most of his target shooting. You may have to look at competition results to see records. There are some accuracy records still held with 30-cal chamberings, but I believe they are limited to the 30BR. Hmmm...might just be related to the 6mmBR discussed earlier. 6mmBR does really well here.

'Cuz it appears the OP is interested in target shooting. Given that in the opening post he appears willing to drop $9,000 to $10,000 in a rifle system, I suspect he wants the best accuracy he can get for the investment.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
For those who think .30 cal. has unbearable recoil or recoil that is prohibitive of accuracy I have a .300 win mag by Weatherby with a 26" barrel. A custom brake and limbsaver recoil that easier on recoil than my .243.

Brakes, suppressors, and additional rifle weight all serve to reduce recoil. Compare apples to apples. Put the same brakes and recoil pads on the 243 and its perceived recoil also diminishes dramatically. Shoot both types of guns with the same equipment (either with or without recoil mitigation), and the 243 has substantially less recoil than the 30-bores. Every single time. Your ongoing apples-vs-oranges recoil comparison may work for the newby shooter, but not for those of us who have been around the block with a wide variety of rifle systems.

So....you think your 30-cal magnums have great accuracy? Excellent. Show us some targets. 5x5 at 100 yards, on one piece of paper. Maybe a 10 or 20 round dot drill at 100 yards. How about some targets at 300 yards, which is where he plans to shoot regularly. Again, dot drills or multiple groups are dandy. Or stretch it out to 700, even 1000 yards. The OP wants plans to shoot targets solo. What better way to present your recommendations than with your own uber-accurate results?

Wow F, that all made so much sense. Thanks for sharing all of it.

I am glad you have been around the block.

I do not need to show you anything. Everything I have said is true.

Thanks for showing your true colors.

Your experience and opinions are good for you.

I have not attacked you or questioned your thoughts.

I have expressed mine and you seem to have difficulties dealing with them. That is your problem.

If the op buys a six something. That is great if he feels that will serve him well.
I am giving some of my opinions that maybe will give him more info to consider. Again, why that disturbs you is odd and maybe something you need to seek some help to deal with. As I doubt I am the only person in you life you struggle with in terms of a different opinion other than yours.

Ni-nite

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Wow F, that all made so much sense. Thanks for sharing all of it.

You're welcome. Anytime.

The OP stated up front this rifle will be for solo punching holes in paper. No competition. No mention of hunting. No mention of sniping. Some of us have presented reasons for different rifle systems, based on results experienced on paper targets -- and steel targets. Such results regularly appear in the "long range rifle discussion" thread in this forum.
For example, on recent pages:
-- 3" group at 540 yards while fire forming 6BRA brass
-- 3.5" group at 700 yards with factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo
-- 2-3/8" vertical group in cross winds at 525 yards with factory 6 Creedmoor ammo
-- a little browsing in the thread produces more results

The OP just might be interested in seeing tangible results of how other rifle systems perform on paper targets. By all means, present your case with pictures of targets.

Living near Kansas City if I were looking for something like you described I would consider GA Precision.

Offgid,

I looked at the photo you referenced. Seemed like it might have been taken a little further south, on the escarpment S of I-40 - not sure if that's what is formally the llano estacado or not, but the road drops down the escarpment going north toward San Jon. Looking at the map, however, looks like the ranch is in the Canadian River valley. Always wanted to wander back in there, never made it. Might have an excuse to now....

You're right - very hot in summer. But it's a *dry heat*.

This thread is great for letting me know what I don't know. Which, I am humble enough to admit, is a lot.

A little more information on my preferences:

• I've always had a preference for more "modern" weapons, which with some interpretation implies tactical. For example, I like the idea of the adjustability and personalization of a "tactical" stock.
  
• I'm not a hunter. I love meat, so I'm obviously not biased against hunting, but I didn't grow up in a hunting family/ environment, so never really got into it.
  
• I am drawn to a larger caliber. Part of that I'm sure is the Tim-the-tool-man-Taylor More Power grunt grunt mentality.
  
• Having grown up with a dad who was a Marine, and having served myself (Army, peacetime, medical), I am also drawn to weapons that have a military application. Hence the MRAD mentioned in the OP.
  

The above are admittedly more "emotional" preferences than practical. But then, we like what we like.

Thanks again, keep it coming!

I went through the same stuff you are about a year ago.
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...935/m/6560038754/p/1

I received much the same info as you are getting now.
In the end I decided that I wanted what I wanted - so I bought an MRAD in .338LM.

Damn near everyone (on the forum and in person) were telling me how much I would hate it due to the recoil.
After getting and firing it - it feels like a .308
Even the people near me who were saying I would hate it - after firing it ate their words and said it was great.

This thing is great fun to shoot.
Zero regrets.

Last two post,

As I have tried to say. Certainly the sixes are great long distance calibers that are highly accurate and a case can certainly be made for accuracy competitions they might be best and easiest to shoot for many.
But outside of that genre I would go to a heavy and more versatile one.

But the great thing is everyone gets to make that decision for themselves.

I wish I was as tough as a couple of you guys on managing recoil. I have Sako TRG's in .308, .300WM and .338LM. They all are very slightly different in scope and mounts, but are pretty darn close to each other in mass. There is not a chance that I could tolerate shooting a long fun day on either the .300wm or .338LM. I truly can't imagine why one would pick that voluntarily to shoot paper. Cars, ok, paper? Having said that I'd add the Sako and the AI to your list of mfg. based on the above most recent comments by the OP as options to the MRAD based on my positive experiences with both. But the multicaliber option of the MRAD seems like a huge plus to me, I'm considering one for that.

quote:

Originally posted by IntrepidTraveler:
This thread is great for letting me know what I don't know. Which, I am humble enough to admit, is a lot.

A little more information on my preferences:

• I've always had a preference for more "modern" weapons, which with some interpretation implies tactical. For example, I like the idea of the adjustability and personalization of a "tactical" stock.
  
• I'm not a hunter. I love meat, so I'm obviously not biased against hunting, but I didn't grow up in a hunting family/ environment, so never really got into it.
  
• I am drawn to a larger caliber. Part of that I'm sure is the Tim-the-tool-man-Taylor More Power grunt grunt mentality.
  
• Having grown up with a dad who was a Marine, and having served myself (Army, peacetime, medical), I am also drawn to weapons that have a military application. Hence the MRAD mentioned in the OP.
  

The above are admittedly more "emotional" preferences than practical. But then, we like what we like.

Thanks again, keep it coming!

Exactly why these types of threads are tough. I'm in the practical camp. What's the best option for hitting little targets far away at certain distances. Caliber that cost less shooting 5K+ rounds annually. What takes advantage of cutting edge technology, how actions are made, machining, metal being used.... Also I'm a very competitive person, if this caliber gives me an edge or I need to shoot this to be competitive. I look at what calibers other disciplines are using, what's setting world records. What calibers were ground up accuracy/efficiency designs. With that I have zero interest in what any military or agency uses for calibers/rifles. I strongly believe most are outdated. I certainly get why others choose the military application firearm path. Just understand, me and my 6BR based case will out shoot you even when you do your part

"dry heat" ya, right. This high altitude mountain guy gets grumpy when temps get over 75!