Assuming the rifle and the ammo are accurate and consistent, what's the standard that is required for military/LEO snipers? .5 MOA? .25 MOA?

Obviously being able to adjust for variables is the most important consideration but when it comes to the actual mechanics i.e. positioning, breathing, heartbeat, trigger control, etc. how are they qualified and to what degree?

I can't speak with any authority on military requirements, but generally on the LE side 1 MOA at 100 yards is the standard.

There is no standard nationally for snipers. Some train, and some train really well. When I was on a rifle, we trained the hard stuff more than the easy stuff. Lots of PT driven exercises. Lots of cold bore stuff, because that is the most important shot. Lots of shooting in the climates we'd deploy in. Knowing what the cold bore does at 100 degrees, knowing what the cold bore is at 25 degrees. Shooting in the snow. Shooting in the rain. Open Air assaults in conjunction with the entry guys.

Most of our current guns will do half minute or better with Federal Gold Medal.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:
Assuming the rifle and the ammo are accurate and consistent, what's the standard that is required for military/LEO snipers?

I assume you’re asking what size target does the sniper have to be able to hit—correct?

I try to keep up with such things, but as for the military even the books written by people like Chris Kyle seldom if ever go into details about their qualification courses. I also suspect that they change as other variables such as inherent weapon system accuracy evolves. Military snipers engage targets at far greater ranges than police snipers do, but they also don’t have the same accuracy requirements.

As for law enforcement, there is likewise nothing published that I’ve seen. There are books that describe various exercises and tests, but I don’t know which, if any, are used as standards by any LE agencies. I would be astonished, though, if any LE agency required snipers to achieve 0.5 MOA or greater accuracy under reasonably realistic qualification conditions. There aren’t that many rifles and ammunition systems that are inherently capable of that performance at their best. Most LE snipers still use rifles like the Remington 700 and commercially-loaded ammunition. Both such rifles and ammunition are inherently capable of producing results that are more than adequate for LE sniping missions, but that’s not at the 0.5 MOA or better level from what I have seen. One LE sniper I know recently attended a class of LE snipers, and based on what he told me, even being able to achieve consistent 1 MOA results was somewhat of a rarity.

I have also read that most LE sniper qualifications involve shooting only from a supported prone position that usually involves use of a bipod. The one exception I’m familiar with is a rural agency’s course and it also includes shooting from a supported kneeling position. The accuracy standard for that position is less rigorous than for prone.

I took a precision course with Nick Irving, an Army Ranger sniper, not long after he returned to the states. Nick is one the best shooters I've seen. He fired five rounds from my 308 at 100 yards, producing a group that was roughly .15". On to 1,000 yards with the same rifle, he put five rounds in roughly 6-7 inches. This was with FGMM 168, density altitude of 8,000', 3-5 mph breezes from our left, a suppressed rifle, from prone.

I got the idea that Nick was one of the more accurate snipers in the sand box, although his colleges were no slouches, either. I don't recall his describing specific accuracy requirement in MOA for duty. Nick stated that shooting the most ludicrously tight groups on a given day wasn't what he tried to do. Rather, it was being able to one round on a reasonable-sized target, on demand, every time.

Nick was a firm believer in dot drills -- 1" black round paster at 100 yards, get into position, hit it with one shot. Get out of position, move, get back quickly into position on the rifle, fire one shot at a different paster. He stated that every shot is its own one-round group. But be prepared to spot your own impact, so that any follow up shots will be correct for wind and elevation.

In reality, anyone capable of hitting a 1" dot at 100 yards from a supported position, at any time, in any conditions, without fail, is a really good shooter. Try doing that after you've just got up from a nap, just finished eating a big meal, jogged a mile, pushed some weights around in a gym, or drove for an hour.

****
I have taken 3 days of classes from Frank Galli, Marine Scout Sniper. Another great shooter. One day he asked me to spot his impacts at 100 yards, as he was zeroing a new scope on his 308 for an upcoming match. I saw the first impact, which was a few inches away from the aim point. I thought he missed with rounds two and three. Shot four clipped the right edge of the the first round's hole, widening it by maybe .1". It turns out that shots 2 and 3 went through the same hole as shot #1.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2612

One of the qual courses we had to pass twice per year on demand.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
One of the qual courses we had to pass twice per year on demand.

Interesting; thank you.
I did not, however, understand the trapezoid description. It seems more like a triangle—?

Any further description elsewhere?

I am also curious about the positional shooting. Did you use a bipod? If so, was it in the extended position prior to the start of the stage?

1 moa for our Swat team was the minimum standard.

There's a book by Christopher Whitcomb called "Cold Zero," about his time on the FBI HRT. I read it many years ago, and he described his sniper training.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
There's a book by Christopher Whitcomb called "Cold Zero,"

Thanks. I will get that.

quote:

Originally posted by Wreckless:
1 moa for our Swat team was the minimum standard.

Understood. What kind of distances are we talking about here? And also, what shooting positions?

Not being a smart donkey, just trying to learn about stuff. I know absolutely nothing about sniping, LEO, military or otherwise; I'm just an old paper puncher.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
There's a book by Christopher Whitcomb called "Cold Zero,"

Thanks. I will get that.

Its a book I have read many times and enjoyed. It gives you a perspective of Ruby Ridge, and Waco that you won't see on the news.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
One of the qual courses we had to pass twice per year on demand.

Interesting; thank you.
I did not, however, understand the trapezoid description. It seems more like a triangle—?

Any further description elsewhere?

I am also curious about the positional shooting. Did you use a bipod? If so, was it in the extended position prior to the start of the stage?

You can shoot it on a T target, triangle, or on a trapezoid, as explained in the article. I used a bipod and toe sock on all stages. The bipod is extended prior to the start of the stages.

Thanks for the clarification.

I just loaded Cold Zero onto my Nook.
Any other recommendations? I have read many sniper-related books, but searching often doesn’t seem to identify certain ones, and most that are listed pertain to the military.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

I had to sourse the following info from Wikipedia and the WWW. I no longer have direct access to the actual documents. The manual for sniping was FM 23-10. I think it's been revised as have most Army marksmanship manuals.

From Wikipedia:

According to MIL-R-71126(AR), 3.15.7 Targeting and Accuracy, The rifle shall achieve the dispersion set forth below when fired from a Government approved machine rest. The average mean radius shall be less than or equal to the values stated below. The minimum rate of fire for conducting this test shall be three rounds per minute.[2]

Range / Average Mean Radius (AMR) — Mean Radius (MR) expresses the average distance of all the shots from the center of the shot group. AMR averages the MR of several shot groups.

200 yards (183 m): 1.3 inches250 metres (273 yd): 1.4 inches300 yards (274 m): 1.9 inches

The radial distance from the calculated center of impact of the first target compared to the calculated center of impacts of the subsequent targets shall be less or equal to 1.086 MOA (3.3 inches @ 300 yards, 2.2 inches @ 200 yards, 2.4 inches @ 200 meters) on a average basis.

The following is from the above mentioned FM. It will give you an idea of the type of targets the Army uses to train and qualify snipers.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-10/ch9.htm

Also, hers's an article written by someone with a foot in both worlds.

http://thecmp.org/sniper-vs-competitive-shooter/

SgtGold, thanks for that link to the CMP article. That was very interesting, educational even.

According to the data that Sniper Craft had (about 3-4 years ago) the US national average for an LEO sniper shot is like 52 yards... I participated in their Advanced Marksmanship course, been to the FBI course, trained w/the Marines outta Pickle Meadows doing their high-angle shooting, and my Agency sends us to the Countermeasures Tactical Institute sniper course at Camp Williams, UT where we get to play w/some of the Reserve SF guys.

With this in mind - I also did DMR type shooting in the Army, as a Scout Plt Section Leader/Sgt.

I am my Agencies sniper team ATL for the last 5 years or so. Not trying to say I am all that - there's always someone better, just providing my training and experience as a reference point...

I will say this - LEO "sniper" trng is dramatically different in concept in comparison to Mil sniper trng!!!

As already mentioned - LEO will try to get as close as safely possible to get the "magical" shot through the cranial vault, as most employment is the result of a hostage situation. In fact, on all the SWAT call-outs I've been on, I always have to bottom out the scopes magnification because I have been so close. Mil sniper shooting is usually at considerable distances, aiming for "center mass." And if you wing the guy or don't "reduce" him immediately, so be it - he'll either bleed out, or hopefully his friends will try to help him, presenting themselves as targets of opportunity as well.

Our Agency rifles are custom Rem 700s, Leupold 4.5X14 scopes, suppressed, and built by Tac Ops. They are honest to god 1/4 MOA capable w/168gr FGMM.

As for our qual - we do the FBI qual course... Which AINT all that impressive IMHO. But part of that qual involves a 4 min run, which we usually equate to jogging to the 300yrd berm and back, then firing 3 rnds into a human head silhouette at 100 yrds, prone supported, in 1 minute, and all rounds have to land within (or on the line) of a box which equates to the cranial vault.

And to be honest - the last qual we did (June) I shot a "legit" 1/4 MOA 3 round group after my "stress run." I wont lie - I was blown away by it, and had the cool-aid grin when I retrieved my target!!! I actually tend to shoot way better "under pressure" when I don't have time to "think about it," and instead just do what I've been trained to do.

Sniper Craft has been one of the better courses to geared towards LEO application shooting

The training at Camp Williams is clearly more geared to Military application shooting.

.02

Thanks for that discussion, Napalm.

quote:

Originally posted by Napalm:
my Agency sends us to the Countermeasures Tactical Institute sniper course at Camp Williams, UT where we get to play w/some of the Reserve SF guys.

Is Doug still teaching it? I've taken a couple of their road classes in years gone by and it was taught by a couple of Kentucky State Troopers. (now both retired from the state police)

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks for the clarification.

I just loaded Cold Zero onto my Nook.
Any other recommendations? I have read many sniper-related books, but searching often doesn’t seem to identify certain ones, and most that are listed pertain to the military.

I also bought Cold Zero, but on Kindle and I started reading it.

When I read such books, at first, I believe that the writer knows what he is talking about and knows the jargon well; this is the mark of someone who is deeply versed in the subject about which he is writing. In the prologue I read this sentence that stopped me cold and engendered doubt in my mind.

[quote]I dial 200 yards into the elevation turret of my bullet drop compensator, then add an extra two half-minute clicks. This will accommodate the acute angle of incidence and high humidity./quote] That's on page 13 in the prologue.

What? That's exactly the reverse of what he should have done. Higher humidity makes bullets go faster because water vapor is less dense than air. Also, we was positioned above the target which means he would have to reduce the distance. Now, I never worry about angle of aim because I shoot horizontal to the ground in competition, so maybe I have that wrong and I'm happy to be corrected, but the high humidity thing is plain wrong.

Then in chapter 2: The Academy, he talks about the smell of Hoppes #10 cleaning solvent. First of all it's Hoppe's, not Hoppes and second it's #9. There is no Hoppes #10 that I am aware of. Anybody who has ever cleaned a gun knows that smell belongs to Hoppe's #9.

I know, I know; I'm picking nits. But it's irritating. I mean it's not at the levels of the atrocious errors Stephen Hunter makes in his works of fiction, he's not a shooter after all, but one would think Whitcomb would know about ballistics and gun cleaning products. Is that too much to ask?

It would be interesting to start a thread discussing the errors in books, fiction and nonfiction, about ballistics, etc. Nicholas Irving’s books are a cut above most I’ve read, but as I recall there is even one howler in his first. Unfortunately I didn’t note where it was, so it would take some searching to find it again.