I wonder if any pistol caliber AR pattern weapons have seen serious use with military or police organizations.

Are they just hobby/completion guns?

It seems like they've not been 100% reliable at ranges, Steel Challenge matches, IDPA, etc.

Why fire 9MM/40 when you can fire 556/300BLK?

It's a niche' market for sure and I'm not saying there is ZERO use for it in Military / Police circles, but it's very narrow and limited in nature.

Yes, 9mm ARs have seen serious use with US law enforcement and military. However, the heyday of the 9mm SMG (MP5, Colt, Uzi, etc.) was back in the 1980s and 1990s, and 9mm SMGs have waned in popularity in LE circles in the last 15ish years, in favor of rifle-caliber ARs and similar. But there are some agencies who still have these 9mm ARs in service, and I believe the US Marine Corps may still have some of theirs.

Personally, I don't know of any local agencies who are currently fielding 9mm ARs, but I know of two local agencies, and local agents of a federal agency, who still have 9mm MP5s in service.


The US Department of Energy (the guys who guard nuclear sites and nuclear material shipments) were one of the first federal agencies to adopt an AR-style 9mm carbine, back in the 1980s. The super-short Colt 633 was designed for them.



The more traditional Colt 635 was used by a greater number of federal LE agencies, primarily from the 1980s through 2000s, including the DEA, US Marshals, Diplomatic Security Service, and Bureau of Prisons, as well as a number of local LE agencies.




A number of Colt 635s were also purchased by the US Marine Corps and used by their Embassy Security, Security Forces, and Fleet Anti-terrorism Security teams. Here are FAST team members in Panama in December 1989:



This is the most recent photo I could quickly find of a federal agent with a 9mm AR. It's a Diplomatic Security Service Special Agent with a Colt 635 during the manhunt in the aftermath of the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing. (DSS is replacing their 9mm ARs with 5.56 ARs, but undoubtedly still have some 9mms in the racks out there.)

When I started we had Colt 653s and HK MP5s. The Colts were replaced with 11.5" Colt 5.56 ARs and the MP5s were replaced with HK UMPs. Now, we're all using 14.5/16" 5.56 ARs for everything.

I dunno, I think an "average" person (non "shooters', non special unit types) would be able to shoot a short FA 9mm more accurately/effectively than a short FA 5.56, so the idea had merit. But it's time has passed.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I dunno, I think an "average" person (non "shooters', non special unit types) would be able to shoot a short FA 9mm more accurately/effectively than a short FA 5.56.

I'd question giving a non-shooter an AR-type rifle, not to mentioned a Full Auto model.

I got nothing against PCCs, but FA is way over-rated (and not needed) for CQB anyway. So; back to 5.56. It is just a way more effective round and easily controlled in semi. Anyone with minimal practice can triple tap a palm size group center-chest from the low ready in under a second.

When the MP-5 reigned supreme was pre-M4 and for some reason the carbine 5.56 variants just weren't widely adopted. I had a "CAR-15" 14.5" barreled M16 variant with a FA lower in 1993 - 2nd RGR BN. Only because I was an RTO though, standard issue was still the A2. Why the A2 stubbornly held on for so long is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take a 9MM PCC (in any usable formate - AR, MP5, Scorpion) over a handgun. More rounds, more accurate, more controllable.

But I see all serious PCC use being niche to the personal security / specialized realm, because even short barreled AR15s firing 556/300BLK are give far better ballistics, which equate to better range and effects on target.

PCCs were the rage in the 90s. The idea that you could give an officer a long gun that would take the magazines off of their duty belt. Everyone said that if Glock had manufactured a 9mm carbine, they would have taken over the world.

I think they would have died the same death the MP5 did in modern law enforcement. While it was a great CQB weapon, at the end of the day, it is nothing more than a super sexy shoulder fired pistol.

Carbines have many advantages over the shoulder fired pistol.

When I was active duty Army in Germany, the Heidelberg gate guards were armed with MP5's.
The base was right in the middle of a heavily populated area.

Several things caused a sea change to 5.56 carbines/sbr types:
More adversaries wearing body armor which would not allow 9mm to penetrate
The sbr/carbines becoming more developed/ reliable than initially
The realization the 5.56 overpenetrates less than handgun calibers
And there are probably others
When I owned a Colt 9mm Ar my personal impression is there very little difference in recoil between 5.56 and 9mm and follow up shots

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
PCCs were the rage in the 90s. The idea that you could give an officer a long gun that would take the magazines off of their duty belt. Everyone said that if Glock had manufactured a 9mm carbine, they would have taken over the world.

I think they would have died the same death the MP5 did in modern law enforcement. While it was a great CQB weapon, at the end of the day, it is nothing more than a super sexy shoulder fired pistol.

Carbines have many advantages over the shoulder fired pistol.

I'm going to venture to say, in the end, it comes down to terminal ballistics.

Pretty much the same size and weight, but with more knock down power between the Colt 635 and an M-4. Everyone went to the M-4 / 5.56 round.

I remember the days where it was an M-16 or MP-5, if you went "Cheap" it was the 635 or Uzi. No one really carried the M-4 / XM177 or CAR-15. ("Special" units not withstanding)

Then people started to realize that it was still a 9mm that was being pushed down the barrel. Not a lot of preformance in terminal ballistics, especially at 30, 40 yards and beyond. 147gr hydroshock was all the rage. MP-5 SD? Ooohhhh, the subsonic round was beautiful!
Yes, a good round if you're dealing with room to room, no worries about over penetration, but anything further than that, not a lot of knock-down power. And not a huge difference between a 9mm, the .45 a .40 out of a sub-gun at anything beyond 30ish yards.

Then people started to realize how the 5.56 round preformed at close range, and you can still hit and knock down stuff at 100, 200, 300 yds and beyond.

Then other rounds started to appear: 300 blackout, 5.7, 6.5 to mention a few. "What preforms better in an 11", 14", 16" barrels?" Faster? Lighter? Heavier? How are the external ballistics, and more importantly, how are the terminal ballistics? (Building a better mousetrap, yet, keeping it in the same package- the M-4)


-Rogue, thanks for making me laugh! Those Picts of the Marines made me laugh. The mag light attached to the forearm! I remember those days fondly. We thought we were "high speed, low drag" with the rechargeable D-cell mag lights, a dremmeled out block of wood and 2-3 hose clamps for out weapon mounted lights.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CPD SIG,

I know the US Marshals around here still have the Colts in their gun locker and still drag them out at range say for fun but, that’s about it. DEA guys had to turn theirs in a long time ago.

I've never seen any of our local feds with 9mm ARs, but there may be some collecting dust in the racks. However, some of the HSI guys have MP5s.

It would be a fun range toy but I can't think of any reason why I would want a 9mm when I could launch a 5.56 from the same size and weight platform.


On the range for shooting steel? That would be great fun.

For defense (or offensive) use, I think the PCC/Sub-gun needs some external factor beyond weapon/ammo characteristics to tip it over the selection edge given the lesser terminal effectiveness.

That factor could be cost, weight, a small and recoil sensitive shooter, size-like a need for a true PDW (a blowback 9mm can be made smaller than any gas ran gun). Something...

But generally speaking without that "X" factor, nope. An 8.5" .300BLK SBR can be nearly as small as, and quieter, than an MP5-SD.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
I'd question giving a non-shooter an AR-type rifle, not to mentioned a Full Auto model.

I don't mean random people off the street, I mean most LEO's (like most gun owners). They're not shooters, they're people who have guns and occasionally shoot them.

HSI is just starting to issue their special agents FA MPX's to replace the worn out MP5's. That is in addition to the Burst fire M4's they already have.

Agents will have the option to have the M4, an 870, and now the MPX, or all three if they choose to.

Argentina bought a number of Colt 9mm SMGs
Here is an argentine soldiers armed with one