When I say M193 I mean the actual 55 grain loading, not the 62 grain M855 type with the penetrator. I've seen the 62 steel core hold together through all kinds of barriers that shred the bullet on the M193 type round.

quote:

Originally posted by ruger357:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
FMJ M193 type ammo reliably fragments through sheetrock and is a good indoor load out of any 5.56\.223 weapon.

I originally thought that too but I’ve seen multiple videos of it blowing through 6-8 walls and an exterior wall. Sideways.

M193 doesn’t necessarily break up and fragment through all barriers.

This video is one of many such tests, and better than most. The first two shots through a significant number of building material barriers tumbled after the first barrier, but exited the last barrier showing no signs of fragmenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYwlxbnKvwU

Other tests increase the number and types of barriers up to the point near the end that a large number of sheets of dry wall and particle board are used. That finally stopped the M193 from a short barrel in the last board, but even then the bullet appeared to be intact with a slight bit of deformation.

Critical points: (~8:23, ~9:40, ~16:59, ~26:20)

There is no right answer to this question. Whatever answer you come up with, someone will shit on it.

I recommend M193. It's the least wrong of the answers.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
As a wise man here frequently says: "Don't pick your rounds based on what's best to miss with."

Such a great quote.

Yeah, sounds great, really nifty. Such a cool thing to say.

And it ignores reality.

I’ve been present when 5.56 was used inside a private dwelling and I’ve investigated numerous other situations where it, other rifle calibers, shotgun rounds, and handgun rounds have been fired into, out of, and through apartments.

5.56 m193 ball will penetrate sheet rock. It will penetrate it less than pistol calibers, buck shot, and slugs. Generally it will tend to break up after penetrating one interior wall consisting of 2 layers of Sheetrock separated by an air gap. True m193 doesn’t leave much to recover as it fragments impressively.

Plain 55gr ball is NOT m193 (thicker jacket, lower velocity, completely different projectile) and tends to penetrate more. I’ve recovered whole projectiles after penetrating two walls (passing completely through a room).

The heavier the handgun round, the more Sheetrock it goes through. Generally it is more than m193 by a significant margin.

00 Buck penetrates like a handgun round. Slugs and rifle rounds like 7.62 can penetrate completely through a dwelling, only to be stopped by the exterior wall. Maybe.

Birdshot does not penetrate far into Sheetrock, but that is balanced by the fact it all does not penetrate far in flesh. It’s effective range is feet, not yards. If that shot column has time to spread at all it’s going to cause a very nasty, but very shallow wound. Would I want to be hit by it? Of course not. I also wouldn’t trust it to stop a fight.

My primary HD long-gun is 14 inch Mossberg 590. At room clearing distance nothing beats a 12 ga and a round fired from my bedroom towards the entry door will have to pass through multiple interior walls, unoccupied rooms, roof decking, and a layer of shingles before it exits. The odds of any pellets successfully doing that and still having enough energy to penetrate through my neighbors wall or roof decking is very slim.

I also keep an AR loaded in the event I get a bit more warning that people might wish to do me harm. They are welcome to stay downstairs and take whatever they like. I’m insured. Should they choose to start up the stairs to the living area then they are in a funnel with a heavy tile floor behind them for a backstop.

So, after all that rambling, from my personal experiences I’d suggest M193 over something like a bonded projectile for this specific use. I’m also a big supporter of 00buck (or even #4 buck if you are keeping the range to room clearing distance). Know your potential fields of fire and plan your response accordingly. It’s not punching holes on Sheetrock that is the issue, it’s punching holes on what’s on the other side of the Sheetrock.

quote:

Originally posted by sgalczyn:
12ga - #4 buck is effective and wall limiting also.................

Big fan of this answer right here for home defense if you are concerned about over penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
When I lived in an apartment, my guns were loaded with the same stuff that I used at work. If it’s good enough for me to shoot inside other people’s houses, it’s good enough to shoot in mine.

And that would be ... what?

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:

"...My primary HD long-gun is 14 inch Mossberg 590. At room clearing distance nothing beats a 12 ga and a round fired from my bedroom towards the entry door will have to pass through multiple interior walls, unoccupied rooms, roof decking, and a layer of shingles before it exits. The odds of any pellets successfully doing that and still having enough energy to penetrate through my neighbors wall or roof decking is very slim.

I also keep an AR loaded..."

Same here. The 590 is loaded with Federal #4 buck.

https://www.ammunitiondepot.co...2ga-1-75-4-buck.html

quote:

Originally posted by Expert308:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
When I lived in an apartment, my guns were loaded with the same stuff that I used at work. If it’s good enough for me to shoot inside other people’s houses, it’s good enough to shoot in mine.

And that would be ... what?

55 grain Federal T1.

Thinking about this 50gr varmint load. Supposedly breaks up very quickly. https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...953330596?pid=944922

quote:

Originally posted by ruger357:
Thinking about this 50gr varmint load. Supposedly breaks up very quickly.

It does.

Indiana State Police had several shootings with a similar 55 grain load. They had issues of a lack of penetration through heavy clothes and only small amounts of the rounds penetrating the chest cavity because after hitting the heavy clothes the rounds would splinter on the breast bone.

They also had a skull hit that did not penetrate from a frontal hit.

We issued it at one point but ditched it after talking to SWAT guys from ISP. Hornady created a TAP Barrier round to fix the problem. It’s a bonded round and is good stuff. We issued it until last year in 62 grain in limited quantities.

YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Despite that all-too-common, never-dying belief, frangible is not the answer:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...450052894#9450052894

Birdshot from a shotgun would penetrate less than anything else I know of, and although it is regularly denounced for not having enough penetration to “stop” anyone by destroying their vital organs, it would deter almost anyone in a non-law enforcement self-defense situation. And a shot to the face at close range would give anyone something else to think of.

But keep in mind that anything that will penetrate deeply into a human torso will perforate common building materials.

#9 shot is typically used for shooting Skeet and there is a shooting station right smack in the center of the field when distance from muzzle to target can be 6 feet or less. So the shots are on station 8 are reaction shots that can be quite difficult for a new shooter to hit. As a result when they do start hitting on station 8 they can tend to celebrate a bit. One on unfortunate occasion the person celebrating still had a round in the chamber of his O/U and he turned towards his friend who was about 8 feet away and accidentally pulled the trigger. At that point the only thing keeping that friends upper arm attached to the forearm was a strip of skin from behind the elbow, every thing else of the elbow was missing. Yeah, he basically shot his friends lower arm off at 8 feet with a load of #9 birdshot. Note station 8 rules today are only load one round for each shot and you Must open the action before taking one step to leave the shooting pad.

Folks, at close range even the finest bird shot can be lethal and at 15-20 feet a shot to the head will leave that individual sightless for the rest of his life. It's also probably about 60-40 that head shot will be lethal. Because that is a mass of lead weighing in at over 440 grains moving at over 1000 fps in a 6 to 9 inch pattern because eye sockets are two big holes in the head and shot blowing thru the eyeballs will penetrate into the brain.

My choice for Home Defense is a 12 gauge Remington 870. As my house is Brick I don't have the penetration concerns created in a Townhouse. Still it is brick and I'm pretty certain that 00 Buck would do enough damage to the brick to require expensive repairs. I've used the 870 it to shoot Skeet on occasion with the 28 inch field barrel mounted and it's resulted in my being capable of breaking two targets in about 2/10 second. If you want to use a shotgun for Home Defense I would suggest you find a local shotgun range and take some lessons on how to hit well with a shotgun and perhaps find a new hobby. BTW, I will also note that depending on availability I'll keep it cruiser ready with either #1 or #4 Buckshot depending on what I can find. I don't like 00 Buck because it kicks too hard and is likely to damage the brick exterior of my house. I also think that more areas bleeding will stop someone faster than fewer somewhat larger bleeders. With 00 Buck you get 9 pellets, with #4 Buck you get 16 pellets, and with #4 you get 25 or so pellets. The really sweat thing about #4 is that while your assailant is on his back writhing in extreme pain you can point at his wound and yell out "do want pickles with that Hamburger".

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]
They also had a skull hit that did not penetrate from a frontal hit.

What was the end result?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Despite that all-too-common, never-dying belief, frangible is not the answer:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...450052894#9450052894

Birdshot from a shotgun would penetrate less than anything else I know of, and although it is regularly denounced for not having enough penetration to “stop” anyone by destroying their vital organs, it would deter almost anyone in a non-law enforcement self-defense situation. And a shot to the face at close range would give anyone something else to think of.

But keep in mind that anything that will penetrate deeply into a human torso will perforate common building materials.

Agreed...

Frangible is not a suitable round.

Get a decent police round for the AR:

Hornady TAP

Speer Gold Dot

Etc


The .223 has a lot of velocity and will penetrate drywall.

This same velocity is also what gets the job done. So, get one of the above mentioned loads and be proficient with your rifle. That will reduce the chances of stray rounds.

Remember, in a critical situation, you will not "rise to the occasion," rather you will default to the level of training that you have mastered. If you are perfect on the range, you'll be fairly good when things go sideways.

Para's right, there is no perfect answer, it's all about a series of compromises.

1) do you want to use the AR over a shotgun?
if yes then skip to 3.
2) if No then are you more worried about your neighbors over you? If yes then birdshot. If no then #4 buck OR possibly do the mini shot shells if your shotgun will function with them.
3) If AR then, are you more worried about your neighbors over you? If yes then pick the most frangible ammo you can. If no then pick a round that you want to defend yourself using.
4) No matter what you pick be prepared to defend yourself against allegations you made the wrong choice.

While scooter makes some good points, in a defensive situation a shotgun is operated exactly like a large bore rifle, not in the traditional manner you would use it for birds or clays.

Perhaps there is some middle ground in the shotgun arena some may not have considered- the larger pellet sizes designed for heavy waterfowl like geese. t or F shot ( just below #4 buck in size) might split the difference between inadequate wounding and excess wall penetration? Just a thought. Lots of those goose loads are steel pellets with less mass and penetrating ability, but the size may make up for that to some degree? Just spitballing an idea.
I definitely would not use a rifle in a penetration concern environment, and pistols are even worse

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]
They also had a skull hit that did not penetrate from a frontal hit.

What was the end result?

Dude lived soaked up a bunch of pistol and rifle rounds to the torso.

Hit what you are aiming at.

I don't have any answers, but this is a question that haunts me (when I'm not doing anything useful! LOL)...

These discussions frequently mention "bird shot"). What they usually fail to mention, is that there are a lot of different sizes and loads of birdshot.
While I share the skepticism that # 8 loads for shooting clays would not penetrate enough. One wonders about a load such as a high brass #2 or #4 duck/goose/turkey loads. At in-home distances, might this be useful ??

Has anyone studied this type of load specifically for home defense? If so, I love to be able to read about it.

quote:

Originally posted by SperlingPE:
Hit what you are aiming at.

Yes, it's as simple as that. Strive to never miss, and it shall be so. Of course there are many shooters who have achieved this, from the time of their very first handling of a firearm: perfection. It's not a myth. Perfect human beings exist.

Yep

This guy always has informative videos with his meat targets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0kLVBDThog