1-10
22oz.
FFP?

That’s the word for Shot Show.

Yeah its a legit promo, Vortex confirmed it on another forum. Looks like a ATACR 1-8x competitor. MSRP is $1999, so should be $1500 street price.

Hope they can pull off the FFP reticle and magnification range. Time will tell.

Interesting. I suspect that eye box will be tough. That's cramming a lot of capability in.

Says it comes with 2 batteries. I wonder if it takes 2. Daylight bright illum FFP.

Vortex Rep basically said you'll see it at SHOT Show and that they wouldn't call it a Razor unless it was a great product - so I'm sure by summer 2020 we'll know if it's a 100% winner or whether there are any hidden issues.

Same length and weight as the GenII-E 1-6, even with the bigger tube body. The center turret portion looks slightly upsized as well. It's certainly going to feel like a chunky scope, but surprisingly probably not any more so than the current model.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Yeah its a legit promo, Vortex confirmed it on another forum. Looks like a ATACR 1-8x competitor. MSRP is $1999, so should be $1500 street price.

I thought the dealer price I saw was over 1500. But if they can maintain essentially the same price as the current 1-6 this should do well. Assuming performance isn't compromised and it can justify its existence between what will be cheap GenII-E's and something like the Kahles 1-6.

I wonder if this will carry over to the PST line. If the relative performance of the Razor to PST 1-6 is retained or improved, this same 1-10 packaged in a $600 scope will be a pretty big jump in budget LPVOs. I'm not aware of anything over 6x between a Strike Eagle 1-8 that's below $400 and the Trijicon 1-8 that seems to float from $1000-1200. It seems like the Steiner and Trijicon 1-4's still remain attractive for budget performance. I'm still a little surprised the PST 1-6 wasn't more popular, though I haven't looked through one to compare to the Razor. All the latest and greatest 'just as good' types likely jump over the Strike Eagle - that I have looked through and isn't something I'm at all interested in.

quote:

Originally posted by Rustpot: I'm still a little surprised the PST 1-6 wasn't more popular, though I haven't looked through one to compare to the Razor. All the latest and greatest 'just as good' types likely jump over the Strike Eagle - that I have looked through and isn't something I'm at all interested in.

I think the PST Gen 2 1-6x24 got some egg on it's face early as the first batches had defective illumination - I had one and they replaced it (of course) with a newer one that has been great.

I bought a Razor II-E (because it has to be great and better) and honestly was disappointed. To me the PST II is 85% of the Razor at 50% of the price. Main difference is the glass isn't quite as good and the illum, while solidly daylight bright, it isn't as bright as the Razor. Much better illum that the Trijicon Accupower 1-4/1-8 (which it replaced for me) and it's got a great eyebox at 1x as well like the Razor. In the end I returned my Razor and bought a NF NX-8 and couldn't be happier.

Anyway, on topic to this optic it's the first mainstream (non-S&B / March / whatever) 1-10x scope, so we'll see how it is received in it's production state.

That looks pretty sweet. Looking forward to see how it pans out.

quote:

Originally posted by Rustpot:
Same length and weight as the GenII-E 1-6, even with the bigger tube body. The center turret portion looks slightly upsized as well. It's certainly going to feel like a chunky scope, but surprisingly probably not any more so than the current model.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Yeah its a legit promo, Vortex confirmed it on another forum. Looks like a ATACR 1-8x competitor. MSRP is $1999, so should be $1500 street price.

I thought the dealer price I saw was over 1500. But if they can maintain essentially the same price as the current 1-6 this should do well. Assuming performance isn't compromised and it can justify its existence between what will be cheap GenII-E's and something like the Kahles 1-6.

I wonder if this will carry over to the PST line. If the relative performance of the Razor to PST 1-6 is retained or improved, this same 1-10 packaged in a $600 scope will be a pretty big jump in budget LPVOs. I'm not aware of anything over 6x between a Strike Eagle 1-8 that's below $400 and the Trijicon 1-8 that seems to float from $1000-1200. It seems like the Steiner and Trijicon 1-4's still remain attractive for budget performance. I'm still a little surprised the PST 1-6 wasn't more popular, though I haven't looked through one to compare to the Razor. All the latest and greatest 'just as good' types likely jump over the Strike Eagle - that I have looked through and isn't something I'm at all interested in.

If they do a PST version It would probably be on a 1-8 erector. The 2-10 is a 5x erector and is a $800 optic. I can’t see a PST Gen3 1-10 being less expensive than a Gen 2 2-10.

Price really depends on where they are made. Japan - Razor, Philippines - PST, Strike Eagle / Everything else - China.

While a 1-10x24 is attractive and has it's place, it doesn't end the need for 2-10x32/44/50 type optics, as some shooters will need the higher low light performance that a larger objective lens provides and the desire for exposed turrets that a typical 1-X won't have.

It's all trade offs.

How small is the reticle on 1x vs how big is it at 10x for a ffp? More importantly, how visible is it. But still... thats crazy.

Do they make a pst gen 2 1-6 in FFP? I only recall seeing SFP. I assumed that was always why it didn’t sell more.

This optic looks great! I want to get my hands on one and see how it compares to the trijicon 1-8.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
Do they make a pst gen 2 1-6 in FFP? I only recall seeing SFP. I assumed that was always why it didn’t sell more.

Up until this point the Razor 1-6s were SFP as well, the PST 1-6x is basically a cheaper Razor II.

Honestly 1-6 I really don't care SFP or FFP, as long as the FFP is well executed. I like the NX-8 FFP and I think if you are up in 1-8/1-10 range that is where things will be from here on out.

Key with FFP 1-X is keeping 1x really 1x with a usable reticle & illumination throughout the power range.

And an update on price, the update I saw was $2899 MSRP and $1999 MAP for the Gen III Razor.

So its up in ATACR 1-8x price range.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Key with FFP 1-X is keeping 1x really 1x with a usable reticle & illumination throughout the power range.

Exactly.

I saw what might be the reticles -- but not a really clear picture on another forum. At 10x the EBR-9 MRAD reticle has a similar look to ATACR 1-8x FC-DM. EBR-9 BDC has some of the look of the FC-DM, but with BDC out to 650 yards, in 50 yard increments for 223 loads, with wind holds in 5 mph increments. Too bad the picture is of relatively low resolution.

At 1x the purported Vortex reticles look similar to the ATACR FC-DM. Meaning that heavy reticle lines on the horizontal and vertical come into play.

This is probably the best type of system dealing with the radical changes in reticle sizes over the 10x magnification change. It probably won't be perfect, but it likely will be serviceable.

I find my NX-8's FC-MOA reticle pretty usable. Not at all perfect, but respectable for my application of a 300blk SBR.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
This is probably the best type of system dealing with the radical changes in reticle sizes over the 10x magnification change. It probably won't be perfect, but it likely will be serviceable.

And when someone considers this optic is trying to be a Red Dot sight at 1x and a precision optic at 10x, with useful FFP reticle marks through the range of power, nobody is ever going to be completely happy with the result.

Hmm.. Same street price as the K16i I currently prefer on my M4s. I'll definitely be interested in giving one a shot. Fisher speaks highly of them, but I worry about the weight penalty compared to the K16i (a hair over 5 oz, plus a 34mm mount vs a 30mm).

1-8 never really grew on me; if I needed more than about 6x, I'll put, e.g. a PM-II 3-20 with an offset RMR or Micro.

So, yeah, definitely interested, especially if I build a DMR-esque 5.56 rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
And when someone considers this optic is trying to be a Red Dot sight at 1x and a precision optic at 10x, with useful FFP reticle marks through the range of power, nobody is ever going to be completely happy with the result.

Bingo.
IMO ffp reticles only become practical for subtension holds at roughly 7-8 power. At 6 power or less, a sfp reticle is more useful -- especially at distances no further than 250-300 yards. I suspect scope manufacturers have known this for a long time, even though the steel/tactical/precision shooters have clamored for ffp LPV optics to go with their ffp high-magnification scopes.

I think we will see more 1-8x and 1-10x ffp scopes in the near future. Maybe even 1-12x and 1-14x ffp. Reticle design will be even critical as magnification increases. IMO ffp reticles are generally best for a 3x zoom factor. Beyond this range the reticle line thickness, subtension sizes, and the distances between the subtentions likely move out of the shooter's realm of optimal.

To me this means that a ffp reticle that is useful at 8x will likely still be good at 25x -- but the distance between subtentions will be getting a bit large. And the reticle thickness might start to obscure smaller targets.

It is a tall order for one scope to excel at both CQB and precision/distance targets. I feel the NF NX8 works pretty well -- with reservations. The red dot is definitely daylight bright and the somewhat-bold black lines at lower magnifications help bring my eye into the red dot. At 7x or 8x the reticle subtensions are useful for wind and elevation holds. But the central red dot is 1.25 MOA in diameter, is dark enough to obscure the target, and doesn't allow true precision aiming -- assuming "precision" is defined as less than 1 MOA. Furthermore, the outer red ring blocks some details near the target. This is all part of the tradeoff for a daylight visible red dot at 1x. And maybe the best tradeoff we have, given current optics technology.

I suspect the 1-10x Vortex will act similarly to the NX8/ATACR8 reticles, but with a little more zoom on the high end. I won't be waiting in line to be the first owner of a Vortex 1-10x, but I sure want to borrow a buddy's rifle that wears one.

quote:

Originally posted by hile:
but I worry about the weight penalty compared to the K16i (a hair over 5 oz, plus a 34mm mount vs a 30mm).

An AR15's total weight should be based on all components, and their expected use. IMO an AR with a 10-power scope will be used for slightly longer distances. It might have a longer and heavier barrel, probably a heavier stock, maybe heavier rail, maybe a bipod -- but probably no forward grip or light.

So the long-distance AR will weigh more. My best precision AR15 is portly. With a 4-16x scope, 20" fat barrel, bipod, suppressor, sling -- it weighs almost 14 pounds. This isn't a bench-rest gun, either. I use it in the extended hike match of Competition Dynamic's Team Safari -- 3 days of 5-ish hours in the field in New Mexico. And in the field stages of CD's Team Challenge -- 3 days of 1-hour jogging/running between shooting positions in Wyoming. Yep, the rifle's weight ain't fun to carry, but the rifle system contributes to consistent hits on targets to 650 yards, and sometimes beyond.

Now my ARs for shorter distances are lighter, due to the combination of many components -- including optics with lower magnfication.

As for the 34mm vs 30mm scope mounts -- there are no practical differences in weight, strength, longevity, or accuracy. Sure, one can't swap a 34mm mount for a 30mm mount, but nobody would consider that anyway.

I'll be putting one of these on my SR-25 once they start shipping if it lives up to Yeti's review. Makes more sense there than on an assault gun. (I have K16i or Razor HD II-E 1-6 on those, except the one 416 that still has an EoTech.)