Offered without comment, except to say, just watch, listen and read the comments twice before reply-posting,

or you won't get your canned ham.
___________________________________

When I first got into gun defense, I sought the advice of three friends. One was a former SEAL, one was former 75th Ranger Regiment and one was an active duty police detective. For home defense, they all 3 recommended the same thing, a 12 gauge.

In response, I got a Molot VEPR 12 ga. It is pretty awesome:

At least a mag fed shotgun solves one of the huge problems with the platform - keeping it topped off.
In CQB yes, the shotgun is great, one is my bedside gun. Beyond living room distance, not so much, especially if using buckshot. If legal problems are added into the mix (shotgun vs AR) having buckshot fly past your intended target is probably not going to make your attorney’s job easy.

James lost credibility points big time for me in that vid spouting off BS about AR reliability, using the 1st gen M16 as an example.
C’Mon Man! It was figured out a good 55 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
James lost credibility points big time for me in that vid spouting off BS about AR reliability, using the 1st gen M16 as an example.
C’Mon Man! It was figured out a good 55 years ago.

Well, it's Youtube... That kind of stuff is incentivized. Saying controversial things - accurate/contemporary or not - triggers clicks, reactions, and engagement, and clicks/reactions/engagement = money.

Richard - Great video. Thanks for posting. One thing I found interesting - James Reeves does not seem to be a fan of Benelli shotguns, at least from his viewpoints in this video. Thanks again for posting. Very good points as to why a shotgun is a affordable home defense tool.

quote:

Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
One thing I found interesting - James Reeves does not seem to be a fan of Benelli shotguns, at least from his viewpoints in this video.

The only thing I recall him dinging Benelli about was the price, and that was in one specific context. He was discussing how back in the day (20-30 years ago), Benelli was practically the only game in town for high quality "tactical" semiauto shotguns, and they were expensive, especially for the time. Whereas nowadays there are a number of options for reasonably priced yet still high quality modern semiauto tactical shotguns, like the Mossberg 930/940 or Beretta 1301.

Yep, he likes his Beretta 1301. I seem to recall that he feels the 1301 is a better gun than the Benelli M4, even before price is a factor, and some reasons why, but I couldn't recall what those were offhand.

I can speak to the awesome power of the 12ga first hand. My father called me back in my college years one Saturday morning and asked if I could make the 40 minute trek home to help him process a deer. When I got there, the deer was in the driveway, laying on it's side with a half dollar sized hole in it's neck. I remarked something about an exit wound and he said "oh, no. That's the entrance wound." He had shot it with a 12ga slug. We turned it over and the exit wound was... dramatic. I'm talking a fist-sized hole. As we skinned it and processed it down, I got to look in detail at what that slug did at every layer of tissue. I think he said he had shot it at about maybe fifteen yards, tops. The damage was impressive. I kept an 870 loaded with slugs for home defense for many years after that.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
At least a mag fed shotgun solves one of the huge problems with the platform - keeping it topped off.
In CQB yes, the shotgun is great, one is my bedside gun. Beyond living room distance, not so much, especially if using buckshot. If legal problems are added into the mix (shotgun vs AR) having buckshot fly past your intended target is probably not going to make your attorney’s job easy.

James lost credibility points big time for me in that vid spouting off BS about AR reliability, using the 1st gen M16 as an example.
C’Mon Man! It was figured out a good 55 years ago.

Disagree on range of a 12 ga shotgun shell. Even cheap 2 3/4" 00 Buck can put all 9 pellets in a torso at 40 yards through a full choke.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
One thing I found interesting - James Reeves does not seem to be a fan of Benelli shotguns, at least from his viewpoints in this video.

The only thing I recall him dinging Benelli about was the price, and that was in one specific context. He was discussing how back in the day (20-30 years ago), Benelli was practically the only game in town for high quality "tactical" semiauto shotguns, and they were expensive, especially for the time. Whereas nowadays there are a number of options for reasonably priced yet still high quality modern semiauto tactical shotguns, like the Mossberg 930/940 or Beretta 1301.

Rogue - Yes, that comment was his only comment about Benelli but what I also noticed was that he did not mention Benelli M2 or M4 shotguns when he mentioned the Beretta and Mossberg shotguns. Guess I was reading more into what he did not say than I should have.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
In CQB yes, the shotgun is great, one is my bedside gun. Beyond living room distance, not so much, especially if using buckshot.

You might be surprised.

Folks who are serious about using their shotgun for defensive purposes really ought to take their shotgun out and actually pattern it at various distances with their chosen buckshot load(s). For the average shotgun owner, seeing the spread with different loads at different distances in real life - versus what you've assumed/seen in movies/read on the interwebs - will likely be eye-opening.

Consider that the average living room is 12x18 feet. That's 4x6 yards. Even on a diagonal, you're right around 7 yards. Nearly any load out of nearly any barrel will have an acceptable defensive pattern at 4-7 yards, and more.

But especially with FliteControl loads or similar tech, which show negligible spread (effectively patterning like a slug) at living room distances, you will still have acceptable defensive pattern even well past living room distances at 25+ yards. And you can achieve similar results even with non-flitecontrol loads by using a tighter choke.

While a shotgun wouldn't be my first choice for a defensive long gun in most situations these days (and that goes double for a novice shooter), they're more capable at medium ranges than many folks realize.

From the comments on YouTube.

ASG, was this you?

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

But especially with FliteControl loads or similar tech, which show negligible spread (effectively patterning like a slug) at living room distances, you will still have acceptable defensive pattern even well past living room distances at 25+ yards.

Agree. At 15 yards, I can cover the 8-pellet pattern with my fist.

Also, at 15 yards, that fist-sized pattern is consistently where I want it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
In CQB yes, the shotgun is great, one is my bedside gun. Beyond living room distance, not so much, especially if using buckshot.

You might be surprised.
Folks who are serious about using their shotgun for defensive purposes really ought to take their shotgun out and actually pattern it at various distances with their chosen buckshot load(s). For the average shotgun owner, seeing the spread with different loads at different distances in real life - versus what you've assumed/seen in movies/read on the interwebs - will likely be eye-opening.
Consider that the average living room is 12x18 feet. That's 4x6 yards. Even on a diagonal, you're right around 7 yards. Nearly any load out of nearly any barrel will have an acceptable defensive pattern at 4-7 yards, and more.
But especially with FliteControl loads or similar tech, which show negligible spread (effectively patterning like a slug) at living room distances, you will still have acceptable defensive pattern even well past living room distances at 25+ yards. And you can achieve similar results even with non-flitecontrol loads by using a tighter choke.
While a shotgun wouldn't be my first choice for a defensive long gun in most situations these days (and that goes double for a novice shooter), they're more capable at medium ranges than many folks realize.

Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised.
I’ve patterned my shotgun (Mossberg 500) with buckshot, 00, 4 and #1 which what it is loaded with right now.
I don’t have the option of using a tighter choke, it’s a cylinder barrel. Yes, I could have work done to it to improve its pattern ability but I have 4 other shotguns to choose from if I really felt the need.
Even at medium ranges I’d prefer a carbine.

It doesn't require tighter chokes or fancy custom work. My point was that even with a Cylinder barrel - and without any work done to it - using a controlled load like Federal FliteControl can allow buckshot to be useful beyond merely living room distances (<7 yards).

Besides just 00 vs. #1 vs. #4, it's worth comparing different brands, and different loads within those different brands, to see what the shotgun is truly capable of.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:
When I first got into gun defense, I sought the advice of three friends. One was a former SEAL, one was former 75th Ranger Regiment and one was an active duty police detective. For home defense, they all 3 recommended the same thing, a 12 gauge.

In response, I got a Molot VEPR 12 ga. It is pretty awesome:

I actually had one of those vepr 12s. With slugs it was pretty awful to shoot, but having detachable magazines was a real hoot. I had a saiga 12 before that and the Vepr 12 was definitely better from a reliability standpoint.

Do yourself a favor and try out a Beretta 1301 or the A300 tactical model. I have a 1301 LE model and it made me a believer. Federal 8 pellet buck flight control patterns really well in that setup.

I had one loudmouth that kept on that shotguns were no good after 7 yards. I took him to the range and got one of those hostage rescue targets out to 15 yards and bet him $10 that I could hit the guy without hitting the hostage. First shot took off the left side of BG face, only thing hitting the hostage was the wad. At double or nothing I shot the BG elbow cocked out from holding the gun into hostage's ribs. Again, only the wad hit the hostage. And both not even close to putting a pellet in. And I say this NOT to show what I could do in the situation of a hostage rescue but to show what a buckshot pattern can do at range.

Then, my nephew and I took the same type of target only instead of pictures it was IDPA imposed targets. At 25 yards using Flight Control we did the same thing, shooting the BG without hitting hostage.

Shotguns have drawbacks, but for home defense they are absolutely a valid choice. I don't use one primarily because if my wife shoots the AR is a lot better choice, but I love my 1301.

As Reeves states, the most powerful shotgun loads have twice the kinetic energy of the best .223/5.56mm loads.

The advantages of the self-loading carbine in .233/5.56mm are greater capacity (though this is mitigated in states which mandate magazine capacity of 10 rounds), faster reloads substantially lower recoil and, perhaps most importantly of all, the ability to penetrate some types of body armor. The near-3000 fps muzzle velocity of the ubiquitous 16" AR loaded with equally common M193 has the advantage over the buckshot-loaded shotgun. However, the blunt force trauma of a 1 ounce Foster slug traveling at approximately 1600 fps is likely enough to render a body armor-wearing recipient out of action when taken in the chest, and may very well be enough to kill them without actually penetrating the armor.

On unarmored targets a 2.75" load of #1 or 00 buck is devastating. Even birdshot when delivered at near-contact distances can be decisive.

While a thirty round magazine may prove decisive in a home defense encounter, instances where such volume of fire is called for seem to be quite rare. Eight rounds of buckshot will probably do everything a home defender will ever need.


This is a rather timely thread. I put away the shotgun for home defense in the 1990s and have been relying on the .223/5.56mm ever since; first the Ruger Mini-14 (which still serves in an auxiliary role) and then the AR-15.

I do own quite a few shotguns and have a dearly beloved Benelli M1 Super 90 which has never failed me, but being a design from the 1980s, mounting lights and slings is problematic, though the issues are not insurmountable.

But, I have been inspired to renew my use of the scattergun in the role of home defense by recently coming into possession of a nearly new Beretta 1301 Tactical M2 LE. The story of how I ended up with a gun I had no intention of acquiring is somewhat amusing, and after I finish setting up my new Beretta, I'll share the story and pics with the forum.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
James lost credibility points big time for me in that vid spouting off BS about AR reliability, using the 1st gen M16 as an example.
C’Mon Man! It was figured out a good 55 years ago.

I did not extrapolate to modern guns, that statement was comparing Vietnam era shotguns to Vietnam era M16s. I believe the very next words in that video remarked at the improvement of the design over time. Miscommunication, possibly on my part. But thank you for watching the video, it's very hard to effectively and accurately communicate to tens or hundreds of thousands of people, so misunderstandings do occur.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Well, it's Youtube... That kind of stuff is incentivized. Saying controversial things - accurate/contemporary or not - triggers clicks, reactions, and engagement, and clicks/reactions/engagement = money.

This sounds like you are accusing me of saying something I don't believe for money. That said, I'm pretty sure this is common practice in the """"""influencer"""""" community at large so I can't be upset at the implication. However, see above. My comment was taken out of context.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
One thing I found interesting - James Reeves does not seem to be a fan of Benelli shotguns, at least from his viewpoints in this video.

The only thing I recall him dinging Benelli about was the price, and that was in one specific context. He was discussing how back in the day (20-30 years ago), Benelli was practically the only game in town for high quality "tactical" semiauto shotguns, and they were expensive, especially for the time. Whereas nowadays there are a number of options for reasonably priced yet still high quality modern semiauto tactical shotguns, like the Mossberg 930/940 or Beretta 1301.

It seems like Benelli was the first to do modern tactical semiautos well. Personally, I have owned M2s and M4s and my M2s seemed to be less reliable than the newer gas guns based on my experience with them. That said, I've got nothing against Benelli, I just like the 1301 better.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
after I finish setting up my new Beretta, I'll share the story and pics with the forum.

I'm very much looking forward to this.

And bear in mind, I like arguing with myself so as usual, I will have the counterpart which will by my attempt to explain why the AR-15 has displaced the shotgun for most purposes these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Obey:

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
James lost credibility points big time for me in that vid spouting off BS about AR reliability, using the 1st gen M16 as an example.
C’Mon Man! It was figured out a good 55 years ago.

I did not extrapolate to modern guns, that statement was comparing Vietnam era shotguns to Vietnam era M16s. I believe the very next words in that video remarked at the improvement of the design over time. Miscommunication, possibly on my part. But thank you for watching the video, it's very hard to effectively and accurately communicate to tens or hundreds of thousands of people, so misunderstandings do occur.

Yes you did. After rewatching the video, you did indeed say the AR design had much improved!
(Hey, I needed more coffee this morning)
Mea Culpa. The misunderstanding was entirely on my part.
I agree that for home defense, the 12 gauge is the Final Word. That’s why one of mine is next to my bed.

My comment about medium to farther ranges was more in thinking about my tendency to pack up the mod 500 camping. It would have been a smarter choice for me to grab my 11-87 with the rifle sight barrel and a mag full of slugs.
Now I just grab a carbine. (And the 6mm ARC upper makes that REALLY fun!)

Looking forward to hunting down more videos.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

This is a rather timely thread. I put away the shotgun for home defense in the 1990s and have been relying on the .223/5.56mm ever since; first the Ruger Mini-14 (which still serves in an auxiliary role) and then the AR-15.

Exact same journey. While there has always been a pistol next to the bed, there was also first a pump shotgun, then a mini 14 and now an AR with a light. I do admit all the hype around the Beretta 1301 has renewed my interest in shotguns. I’ll probably stick with the bedside AR, but I’ll also probably buy a 1301.