quote:

literally its terrible

Hahahaha. I know I can count on you, for the real-life feedback, and that's exactly what I was hoping for. I haven't even had the chance to handle a TP9 but, based on my experiences with other PCCs, how the TP9 looks on paper, and how I consider the role of a SMG (or PCC), I always thought it checked all the boxes. The stock, vert grip, and silencer go without saying, but I certainly didn't know about fragile mags, a crappy trigger, and what is apparently a bad reload process. I guess I can likely forget about it now, and thereby PCCs altogether. Thanks again, for your feedback.

I know they are looked at like the Rodney Dangerfield of guns but I have a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 9mm with Beretta 30 round magazine that has been great, it's very fun to shoot, dead nuts accurate and sits in my closet high up on a set of hooks ready to be racked and used if needed.

Mine is green like this one:

Yet another proponent of the B&T APC9. Machined to excellence, very accurate, easily suppressible, proven design, it ticks all of the boxes. It has a similar manual of arms to the MP5 (minus the “HK Slap” ) if that is your thing.

I bought mine for a (albeit expensive) range toy, but it would serve a home defense role very well. I realize there is a price penalty for anything with “B&T” printed on it. But it really is worth the money.

H&K-Guy

I'd grab any of these. You might be surprised to hear that the GHM9 is my favorite. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the easiest to shoot well. Might be the RMR sight, might be the LOP...I dunno. <shrug>

I'll throw my vote in for a Scorpion. It's been 1000% reliable and cleaning has proven irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by JonDaddy82:
...1000% reliable...

That's very reliable!

What number would we then put on the really reliable stuff like the B&T or the HK?

If you want contemporary ergos, controls, and optic mounting options, the PCCs I would consider are:

B&T APC9 PRO.
Pros: fully ambidextrous, multiple stock options, takes AR pistol grip, hydraulic buffer makes it feel like it’s a delayed blowback.
Cons: cost, cost of factory mags, factory mags somewhat fragile if you drop on the feedlips.


B&T GHM9.
Pros: less expensive than but equally capable as the APC9, more modular than the APC9, hydraulic buffer makes it feel like it’s a delayed blowback.
Cons: same as APC9.

If you’re into Glock mag carbines, both the APC9 and GHM9 can be ordered with Glock mag lowers.


CMMG radially delayed blowback.
If going this route, I would buy the barrel and bolt kit, build out yourself or have built with a better rail than offered by CMMG. I like the KAC URX4 and the Aero rail for these. My business partners have uppers that are used on some of our post sample lowers. They easily have 10k rounds through them, eat anything, and are reliable. You want to use MEAN Endo mags.
Pros: it’s an AR, but doesn’t suck like traditional straight blowback AR/9 PCCs.
Cons: I can’t really think of any.

CZ Scorpion.
Pros: Inexpensive with plentiful and inexpensive mags.
Cons: Straight blowback, aesthetics are goofy IMO.


The MP5 is a very real contender too, but it lacks a last round bolt catch, mags are expensive, cost of a SP5 (I wouldn’t consider anything else) is high, and optic mounting adds expense and ergonomic challenges.

The cons on magazines for the B&T APC are easily dealt with as B&T offers lowers in other mag formats...glock as you note in the sidebar and Sig as another alternative. Both run fine with none of the sometimes problems ones sees in these things. In the role we are discussing to me the glock mag APC in either 9 or even better 10mm is just about perfect.

When I was at one of the local ranges, lately, there was a guy a few lanes down shooting quite rapidly, creating one ragged hole at about fifteen yards.

I was impressed.

When I was doing an intermediate brass cleanup I called out to him "Nice shooting!"

Well, it turned out he was shooting a pistol with a folding brace and an RDS

He let me run a mag full through it.

The recoil was unexpected, but, once I got use to that I was able to do the same thing he'd been doing.

It was kind of fun. Wish I'd taken better note of that it was. To me it looked like a very short-barreled rifle.

Had no hand-guard to speak of. Had to place your leading hand essentially down the front of the mag well.

I think it was taking Glock magazines.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I have a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 9mm

Mine has performed in dozens of Steel Challenge matches, with nary a hiccup. It has been incredibly reliable, and I know it will work when called upon.
Not pretty to look at, but I know it well and am confident in what it will do.
Great PCC.

Scorpion imo. I agree that a 16” 9mm is just silly, not that an SBR is within everyone’s reach… but it should be!

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I assume this question was at least in part prompted by my broken ejector retaining pin on my CMMG RDB carbine in the postal match thread. I have a long love/hate relationship with 9mm PCCs, so I guess I'll attempt an answer.
Well, um .. yes. It made me think of all the troubles I've seen with semi-auto PCC's in the past: my own and others at the square range, at IDPA, Steel Challenge and bowling pin matches.



With that in mind, if I'm going to limit myself to handgun calibers, I'd rather just have a handgun for it's improved manueverability and handling in tight quarters. Ballistically speaking, I'd rather have a levergun in a magnum handgun caliber than a 9mm carbine for defensive use...at least those cartridges see some significant benefit from the longer barrel.

I was curious to see who would mention lever action carbines. Dependable, but slow to reload. And, as you pointed out, the ballistic advantage is impressive from a few cartridges, like .357 Magnum.

Roughly 600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy from a four inch handgun to double that in a 16" carbine. That's right there with .223/5.56MM from a 16" AR carbine. 9MM, .40S&W, .45ACP don't jump up that much.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/357mag.html
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/2011graphs+/223ME.html



Honestly, if money was no object and I had to choose a PCC for home defense, I'm gonna go with an MP5, an MPX, or maybe that new roller-delayed AR from JP.

I like roller delayed firearms, so I finally went to JP Rifles' website to see about pre-ordering. Good thing I sat down with a stick between my teeth to bite on before opening the page.

RR-JP5G940/TCAPC $3,199.00
RR-JP5G940/TCPCC $3,269.00
RR-JP5G940/TCSCC $3,349.00


https://jprifles.com/1.2.18_JP..._select=rif_buy_menu

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I've shot a lot with PCC's (tens of thousands of rounds over a dozen different brands and types of operation, none lever action so I have no idea what the OP means by a lever action PCC) .

hrc, a carbine is a shortened/lighter rifle.

A Henry Big Boy Classic in .357 Mag with 20" barrel is a rifle.
A Henry Big Boy Carbine in .357 Mag with 16.5" barrel is a .. a .. carbine. A Pistol Caliber Carbine.

quote:

I like roller delayed firearms, so I finally went to JP Rifles' website to see about pre-ordering. Good thing I sat down with a stick between my teeth to bite on before opening the page.

Yeah, no joke. I can tell you right now I won't be getting one. Like the H&K SP5, they've completely priced their way out of the "normal people" market. I imagine they're great guns, but I could buy 4 or 5 different great guns for what they're asking. The closest I an get to justifying anything roller-delayed is the PTR 9CT, and even that is up there. I'm not an H&K purist, though...never understood the cult (once again, good guns but wildly overvalued), so at least with the PTR for your money you get the rail and m-lock handguard. Still haven't brought myself to spend the better part of $2k on one, though.

I still think you can make a strong argument for the levergun. I've got an older buddy who uses a 16" Marlin 1894 Trapper in .44 Mag as a home defense long gun. It's light, handy, packs a huge punch with limited muzzle blast, and far less recoil that a shotgun. Unless he's fending off a raging mob, there's more than enough capacity in that tube to deal with one or two intruders. Considering his physical condition, lifelong experience with the levergun, and the capabilities of the platform, I think it's an excellent choice for him.

For me, at least at this point in my life, it's an 18.5" 870 with extended tube and an exact replica of my P320 duty gun that lives in my nightstand. If I could get my wife to put any effort whatsoever into shooting, I might set us up with a PCC for times when I'm not going to be home, but as it is with her limited experience, she's not well-versed in the manual of arms and won't put in the time to become so (just not her thing, and she's also cross-eye dominant, so shooting long guns has always been a frustration for her when she has tried). As such, she's better off with a handgun, and the P320 is a simple point-and-click interface, so it's a good choice for her.

quote:

A Henry Big Boy Carbine in .357 Mag with 16.5" barrel is a .. a .. carbine. A Pistol Caliber Carbine.

I'm slow, but really I'm not that slow. The vast majority of the suggestions in this thread are all guns with shorter than rifle length barrels and very short overall lengths. MP5, APC's, AR9, TP9, Scorpion, GHM9, etc.
And in general the shorter stuff is much more handy in the home defense realm which is why I think many suggested those as options. And while its true in some calibers that can be shot from pistols that longer barrels help, they don't do much in the most popular pistol calibers like 9mm, .40s&w, .45ACP, 10mm, etc.
Getting a truly short lever action with a decent round count seems a bit problematic to me but maybe there are short mag fed pistol ones or something else similar. Its not a field I know much about. I normally only see them in cowboy shooting and those don't have much to do with anything one might call on for home defense.

I have a PSA 9mm AR, standard 16-inch barrel, two-point sling and a mounted SureFire light. It’s very basic and, after a couple of hiccups in the first couple hundred rounds, has now seen almost 3,000 trouble-free rounds.