quote:

Originally posted by Snake207:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
When you hear your front door getting kicked in, you will want the 5.56.

This.

I don't want to get shot with anything, but I'd much rather get shot with a 9mm than a 5.56.

I think too many people have the mindset of "what's the best caliber to miss with".
(I'll also be the first to admit I thought this way for a very long time.)

Let's face it - anything you'd consider using for self defense if going to go through walls. To what degree varies, but if you miss with 9mm, Buckshot, or 5.56, the rounds are still going to go through a few layers of sheetrock.
Go with the caliber that you can shoot quickly and accurately, that will do the most damage.

And the whole hearing loss thing - there's a 3 decibel difference between a pistol and a rifle. Loud is loud. Unless you don hearing protection or are shooting suppressed, anything you shoot is going to be loud. If it's come to the point that I'm firing in self-defense in my home, the last thing I'm worried about is some hearing loss. I'd rather be slightly more deaf than dead. Plus, even though it's still damaging your hearing, auditory exclusion comes into play as well.

https://www.silencercentral.co...Comparsion_chart.pdf

Edit to add: good choice getting the AR!

A 40gr - 55gr tipped bullet out of a 5.56 will not pass through two layers of sheetrock. Not the best against body armor, but I'll take my chances.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
great, give us the details on the purchase so we can critique it for you
Better order the suppressor and find the local dealer with the Silincerco kiosk. Don't wait. Do it now.

From the chart previously referenced:

With 55GR FMJ,
non-suppressed 16" AR 165db
suppressed 16" AR 132db

That is significantly less hearing damage.

I'm not having luck finding measured decibel data from suppressed and non-suppressed 16" 9MM carbines.

That could be an interesting weekend experiment.

quote:

A 40gr - 55gr tipped bullet out of a 5.56 will not pass through two layers of sheetrock.

It would seem 55gr rounds will go through more than 2 layers...

https://www.thearmorylife.com/...fense-gun-dangerous/

https://www.outdoorhub.com/sto...-penetration-issues/

https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...-shotguns-and-walls/


That being said - I would still want to miss with an AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:
Did the OP mention the barrel length?

While those in this forum may think nothing special about SBRs, the overwhelming majority of AR15s sold in this country have 16" barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Snake207:

quote:

A 40gr - 55gr tipped bullet out of a 5.56 will not pass through two layers of sheetrock.

It would seem 55gr rounds will go through more than 2 layers...
https://www.thearmorylife.com/...fense-gun-dangerous/
https://www.outdoorhub.com/sto...-penetration-issues/
https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...-shotguns-and-walls/
That being said - I would still want to miss with an AR.

The first video is using an 11.5" barrel, reducing velocity reduces fragmentation chance when it encounters a wall. The second video is using .223 load FMJ. Again, velocity reduced, and not a tipped bullet as mentioned which would aid in deformation and energy loss. The third was using M193 and JSP. Again, not a tipped bullet.

These are good resources though to at least have some kind of expectation in bullet behavior if you end up shooting a wall for whatever reason. Just not the rebuttal you were hoping for.

Personally - I choose an AR in 5.56. My personal gun is firing .223 64gr Gold Dots from a 12.5" barrel. M193 is available on hand in a number of loaded magazines, but the first thing I grab is also something I feel confident taking predators with, and I know is effective against soft targets. M193 works great at short distances, but velocity loss from a 12.5 at my max engagement distances aren't what I'd like with an FMJ. The 12.5" length with a short suppressor is about equal in size to a 16" standard carbine.

If you do end up with an AR-9 I very much recommend the Colt-pattern magazines over a Glock setup. The Glock mags insert at a weird angle for an AR, and are single column feed which forces an increase in the length of the magazine to accept as many rounds, as well as making the bolt slightly smaller to fit in the narrower feed lip opening. AR-9 guns are also more difficult to buffer well, and are harder on internal parts like hammer pins and bolt catches.

This term- AR-9. Is this a specific manufacturer's model designation? Otherwise, I don't understand why this term is being applied. After all, an AR-15 is not in 15 caliber.

I know you found your answer....

I consider AR9 rifles to be cool range blasters. I don't think I would ever use one for self defense. I've had several failures in most of my AR platform 9MM rifles, to include a real deal Colt 9MM AR15. I have Glock pistol mag versions, and Colt stick mag versions.

I do have a Beretta Storm carbine 9MM and its as reliable as an anvil. Consequently, its in the closet ready for self defense right now. Also, its much shorter than a 16' barrel AR15 due to how the magazine is loaded into the pistol grip. Its basically SBR length, but with a full 16 inch barrel.

I have a CZ Scorpion and I think its a properly designed and tested platform at this time. Mine has been 100%. No issues. I would use it for self defense, BUT, I have much more time on my tried and true Beretta carbine at this point.

I do like the idea of a 9MM rifle for self defense, as long as its tested and reliable.

For .223 loads, yes M193 5.56 loads will almost certainly get the job done. I keep 55 grain soft points in my AR15 mags. THESE are the rounds that they talk about penetrating less walls than buckshot or pistols. It has to be a soft point or a ballistic tip varmint round for reduced penetration. FMJ will penetrate walls like crazy. I was issued 55 to 64 grain soft points from Federal or Winchester at various times before we went to Speer GoldDot .223 and I totally trust soft point rounds in a "house" environment when not shooting through window glass or car doors.

So which is armor piercing. M855 or M193?

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
So which is armor piercing. M855 or M193?

Both.

M855 has a steel core designed to penetrate soviet helmets at a couple hundred yards. But both will penetrate many levels of body armor. If I'm not mistaken, M193 through a 20 inch barrel has incredible ballistics and has to have a special threat level for it.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
This term- AR-9. Is this a specific manufacturer's model designation? Otherwise, I don't understand why this term is being applied. After all, an AR-15 is not in 15 caliber.

I’m answering only because I learned something else unexpected. I’ve come across “AR9” as used by the gun industry as AR similar firearms but using 9mm and (here’s what I erroneously thought before) same way that AR10s used 10 mm. Only to find out that AR10s use 7.62mm or .308

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
This term- AR-9. Is this a specific manufacturer's model designation? Otherwise, I don't understand why this term is being applied. After all, an AR-15 is not in 15 caliber.

Several manufacturers have used the designation, most use their variation of "AR" and add 9 at the end. KP9 (KP15), LAR9 (LAR15), FX9 (FX15), PA9 (PA15). Outside of the few such as Wilson Combat that currently use the actual "AR9" designation, the term is used pretty regularly as a catchall of the generic AR9 guns. Very few of these guns other than Colt are AR-15s, in name or design, so they're not AR-15s in 9mm, either. Yeah, the caliber doesn't track, but I don't think it matters.

This is all in the last 10 years when the number of companies making ARs went from a handful to buckets full.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
M855 has a steel core designed to penetrate soviet helmets at a couple hundred yards. But both will penetrate many levels of body armor. If I'm not mistaken, M193 through a 20 inch barrel has incredible ballistics and has to have a special threat level for it.

M193 out of a 20" will defeat III+ and most commercial steel plate armor sold at retail, level IV is needed if I remember right.

The answer to the question is "both", because you can never have too many guns. And a shotgun too. And a belt-fed if you can afford it...

Now that you've picked 5.56. Are you going with 16", pinned 14.5", sbr?

We've had no issues using Hornady TAP ammo in our various length rifles at work but since we're done with Hornady, I'm looking into what Winchester offers for our rifles for the urban environment when we restock. All our rifles are now 14.5".

For my home defense rifles, I have an 8.5" suppressed 300blk and a 10.5" suppressed 5.56. The 300 is loaded with supers. I have a CMMG Banshee in 9mm, but that's for fun.

Why are you switching from Hornady?

We've had no issues using Hornady TAP ammo in our various length rifles at work but since we're done with Hornady, I'm looking into what Winchester offers for our rifles for the urban environment when we restock. All our rifles are now 14.5".

For my home defense rifles, I have an 8.5" suppressed 300blk and a 10.5" suppressed 5.56. The 300 is loaded with supers. I have a CMMG Banshee in 9mm, but that's for fun.[/QUOTE]

I can't remember exactly, Hornady started requiring we order either xx number of cases or spend $xxxx number of dollars. I only bought rifle ammo from them and we would not buy enough, so Winchester doesn't require a minimum amount.

But Winchester is so far behind. I'm waiting on 30 cases of 357SIG from LAST YEAR.

I just heard that Winchester sent their employees the same vaccine mandate letter as Hornday. Just an FYI. I have not seen a copy yet but Winchester does have a substantial US MIL ammo contract.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
Now that you've picked 5.56. Are you going with 16", pinned 14.5", sbr?

I went with a straight 16". I was going to go with an IWI AR pistol with 12.5" to start with and I was planning to have two 16" rifles. But I decided I just need 2 ARs instead. I dropped the idea of an AR pistol to simplify things.

This first AR will be my do everything AR - plinking, home defense, SHTF. I think the manufacturer of my second one is dead in the water with Covid and the supply chain.

I'll post pics when I have it decently outfitted. I'm figuring out when the best time of the year is to get basic AR training. I wanted to scope out the place today but it was closed.

^^^Sooo, does that mean you went with the 16" IWI Zion-15?

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Sooo, does that mean you went with the 16" IWI Zion-15?

No, if I was going with an AR pistol, I would have gone with the Zion as it's the only widely available pistol with a 12.5" barrel which is what I want for an AR pistol. I've been watching videos of various barrel lengths in terms of effectiveness.

But then I came to thinking what's another 3 1/2"? Especially considering the shorter barrels are supposed to have a bigger blast than a 16" barrel. Then I'd have to remember to only "occasionally and inadvertently" shoulder the brace when I'm out in the range. I figure that's not going to help me get proficient with my first long gun.

So I decided with the 16" and I came across by chance Battle Arms Development and their mostly ambidextrous lower. I also decided not to build my first AR since I'll have to buy the tools also.