Hello all,

In 2011 I bought a savage 11fv (bull barrel 24” blued) for my dedicated varmint rifle. Out here she’s seen A LOT of use and some abuse in some fantastic prairie dog fields. My day record was 1500 rounds in 5 hours. That being said, I haven’t been able to get it to group acceptably for a few months. I’ve been good about decoppering the barrel, I loaded up the same rounds I have always loaded (28.0 w748, nosler 40gr ballistic tip @ 3580fps). My guess is that I have 7500-8500 rounds down the pipe, and it is barely holding 1.5” at 100 yards. Mind you, I haven’t several groups of .18”-.25” on paper targets from 2012-2014. I know they say a 223 is hard to shoot out, but my supposition is that they talk about ARs not match grade varmint rifles. I don’t have access to a bore scope, but do you precision shooters think the barrel is done? I’m using the same of everything I’ve always used, I’ve checked rings/bases/scope. Rings and bases are warne torqued and locktighted, scope is a leupold vx3i 6.5-20AO ffp. Is it time to change out the barrel for a new one?

—mk25

Your record day of 1500 rounds pretty much took that barrel over the hill for any form of precision shooting. Even a new barrel likely wouldn't survive that kind of throat wear -- from the heat of firing so many rounds in such a short time.

If you demand sub-MOA performance at a few hundred yards from a quality 223 barrel, expect 4k to 6k rounds of barrel life if you're regularly getting the barrel hot.

If you all you need is plinking accuracy of 2-3 MOA at 50-100 yards, a decent 223 barrel could go 10k to 15k rounds. It might be keyholing rounds, however.

High-volume PD shooting produces as much wear on a bolt action barrel as does high-volume AR15 training.

quote:

My day record was 1500 rounds in 5 hours.

I think that, plus the faster-than-usual bullet, has a lot more to do with it than the total number.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

quote:

My day record was 1500 rounds in 5 hours.

I think that, plus the faster-than-usual bullet, has a lot more to do with it than the total number.

Not really. At 7500-8500 rounds a 223 barrel is no longer a precision barrel. I've shot out two 223 barrels, and I've trained and competed with guys who have shot out multiple 223 barrels.

Fritz is correct, that barrel is toast,

in the Service Rifle world I frequent, the High Masters and Masters would have replace that barrel at the first sign of the accuracy dropping off,

as a lowly expert, I rode a barrel till about that round count and went from 3/4 MOA to double that practically overnight, (barrel was showing serious wear when I gaged it)

I’ve done some dogging, mostly SD, a little in MT.

I know we have favorites & loads/powders we’ve used over the years. 1st off, isn’t Win-748 a tad slow with light bullets in the 223? Seems a little temp sensitive also. Yes, it would be workable.

Your 1500 shots in a day is outstanding. I have reasons for a slower cadence, goal being to keep percentage of hits high. I usually just load one round at a time. Not to say your hit ratio wasn’t high.

I often have my loads in the ‘upper-mid’ level, just easier on everything, gun, brass, etc.. I also try to be in dogtown about mid June, though anytime one is able, is great. Near mid June, high numbers, still trying to figure things out. Unless one wants to go further, bulk of the action is 50-200 yards.

I also realize, one can have the ‘ground squirrels’ further West, a fair amount smaller than the standard prairie dogs.

Not sure about cost comparison, but isn’t it possible to cut the barrel back some & ‘rechamber’. I’ve thought it’s mostly ‘throat erosion’, that can be eliminated with such a procedure.

Savage barrels are easy to replace. Minimal tools and you can have a new barrel ready to rock in 10 minutes.



Tony.

After seeing the consistent reactions of you guys, I think the barrel is toast. I never dreamed I’d shoot out a 223 barrel… but here I am!

As for win748, the load I have for those 40gr ballistic tips is the max out of the nosler book. I had 2 kegs of w748 and the first load I tried grouped .2s. So I stuck with it. I just cranked out 1000 of them with a progressive, shot them and repeated for years.

Out here we have beldlings ground squirrels which can vary from roughly the size of a toilet paper tube up to full grey squirrel size. A good field with a sunny and still day can yield 200-500 shots inside a 250 yard radius. I’ve had days with 100 shots fired, or days where you can’t keep any of the rifles cool. I typically use a 17hmr for up close out 100 yards. Then when they start to stay in the holes close up, switch out to the 223. The occasional long poke will warrant a 220 swift or my 243 ackley. All centerfield are serious overkill on the beldlings, but they do catch air!

I guess it’s time for a call to pacnor and an excuse for a day trip to the coast to drop off the action… oh darn!

quote:

Originally posted by 226mk25:
I never dreamed I’d shoot out a 223 barrel…

Barrels are consumable items for high-volume rifle shooters. Assuming you desire great accuracy.

The warning signs for a barrel's end of life include:
- Noticeable decrease in muzzle velocity.
- Significant increase in the jump to the lands.
- A noticeable increase in vertical stringing at distant targets, say 300-500 yards for 223 Remy.
- Increase in WTF flyers, especially landing low, but sometimes landing left or right of POI. Shot out barrels almost never send rounds high.

A 223 barrel that performs poorly at 300-500 yards may still produce fairly decent targets at 50-100 yards. But even the groups at shorter distances will become less consistent.

I have had all those symptoms. Good pres and trigger release and a round is 1.5”high and 1” left. I’ve already contacted PacNor barreling in Brookings Or. They do all the barrels for Noveske, and military sniper contracts. Their shop is about 2.5 hours drive from me and they are fantastic with customer support. I shot a .52” group with my 243ai that they built for me a few years ago. I’d highly recommend them for barrels. Now… to ackley the 223 or leave it as a 223?

quote:

Originally posted by 226mk25:
Hello all,

In 2011 I bought a savage 11fv (bull barrel 24” blued) for my dedicated varmint rifle. Out here she’s seen A LOT of use and some abuse in some fantastic prairie dog fields. My day record was 1500 rounds in 5 hours. That being said, I haven’t been able to get it to group acceptably for a few months. I’ve been good about decoppering the barrel, I loaded up the same rounds I have always loaded (28.0 w748, nosler 40gr ballistic tip @ 3580fps). My guess is that I have 7500-8500 rounds down the pipe, and it is barely holding 1.5” at 100 yards. Mind you, I haven’t several groups of .18”-.25” on paper targets from 2012-2014. I know they say a 223 is hard to shoot out, but my supposition is that they talk about ARs not match grade varmint rifles. I don’t have access to a bore scope, but do you precision shooters think the barrel is done? I’m using the same of everything I’ve always used, I’ve checked rings/bases/scope. Rings and bases are warne torqued and locktighted, scope is a leupold vx3i 6.5-20AO ffp. Is it time to change out the barrel for a new one?

—mk25

That barrel is probably toast.

Round count is always relative, and heat is what kills barrels.

You can probably get 2-3x out of a barrel that is never abused with prolonged firing while hot.

I've shot out an AR barrel with roughly 7-8k of a 3-Gun use.

I've shot them out faster than that with hard use paired with a suppressor.

If my experience is any guide, that barrel will eventually open up to 8-10 MOA. How quickly that happens is anyone's guess.

You might want to consider one of the barrel cooling fans that goes into the action as you swap rifles in the prairie dog fields.

quote:

Originally posted by 226mk25:
Now… to ackley the 223 or leave it as a 223?

You hand load, so you won't be concerned with the lack of factory AI223 ammo.
- AI will improve MV by up to 75 fps with heavy bullets, by up to 140 fps with light bullets.
- From what I understand, you'll use about 2 grains more of powder with each round.
- Accuracy might be a touch better with AI, or it might be about the same as 223 Remy.
- Wind drift will be slightly reduced with AI, due to the higher MV.
- AI will wear out barrels slightly faster, due to its greater powder charge.

Another common indication of throat erosion is increasing frequency of a carbon ring buildup. I'm experiencing it with a suppressed AR15 that has roughly 4500 rounds on the barrel. The AR is getting a bit finicky with accuracy on a cold clean barrel, but settles down after a couple of shots. However, after maybe 100 rounds the carbon ring seems to be messing with accuracy. Muzzle velocity has decreased, and I must add 1+ MOA of elevation from original dope for shots beyond 400-ish yards. The barrel's accuracy has not deteriorated enough for me to pull it, but it's living on borrowed time. I have a replacement barrel in the wings. I use this AR for precision training purposes, but it isn't a competition rifle.

The type of steel in a barrel makes a difference in throat wear patterns. Stainless barrels tend to shoot very consistently for the most of their true precision accuracy life, then their accuracy can fall off noticeably during a moderate day's shooting -- in less than 100 rounds. This has happened with both the AR15 barrels I retired. Chromoly barrels tend to show accuracy deterioration a little earlier in the process, but occurring more gradually. The initial accuracy of either steel type, given similar manufacturing methods, is indistinguishable.