Mtcw worth is that many are over hyped. Sure there are some that may be a bit iffy. Not many though.I am not sure about the claim that "I have seen several have catastrophic failures in the first 20 rds" claim.
That seems dubious. Sure there are going to be failures. But imho the vast majority of production rifles by legitimate manufacturers are just fine and will serve the vast majority of users just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
"I have seen several have catastrophic failures in the first 20 rds" That seems dubious.

I responded earlier from my phone which is hard to type on, but I knew this was coming and I have nothing to back it up other than my word: a neighbor had a buddy over with a Diamondback and it sheered a bolt lug the first round it fired. After the guy sent pics to Diamondback, they said send the rifle back. He got a whole new rifle (different serial # and all) as they said chamber, mag well, and upper receiver were all out of spec. 2nd try with new rifle and it fires 1 round then stovepipes. Keeps doing this regardless of which mag or ammo was used. Called previous contact at Diamondback and again, he gets a whole new rifle. 3rd rifle wouldn't cycle, as in the gas port was too small or had debris in it. Guy paid something like $380 for it and he got his money's worth if you ask me.

Del-ton #1: Sheered gas key in less than 5 rounds.

Del-ton #2: Broken extractor and sheered lug in less than 5 rounds.

1 Anderson had a trigger lock up on it in 2 rounds(wanna bet the lower was out of spec and the parts were in a bind?)

Radical made it 15 maybe 20 rounds before the muzzle device went flying downrange. Looking at the threads on the barrel, I'd imagine someone did them with a pipe threader in their basement at night while the power was out. (while this wasn't catastrophic, it didn't instill a bit of confidence in using their product).

If you'll notice, a lot of the failures were bolt related which is why what Para said is so important. A quality bolt in a decent rifle will go a long way as long as the rest of the gun is serviceable.

Most common shortcuts on low tier rifles are non-TDP parts on the BCG, improper staking of the castle nut or none at all, improper staking of the gas key screws on the BCG (a brand new BCG from AIM Surplus was the cause of my woes and troubleshooting on my first ever AR build many years ago....30 day return policy, no warranty says everything) and lastly, poor fit or alignment of the gas block over the gas block hole.

DI rifles are pretty simple that way...a couple checks on any low-tier rifle before doing a 4473 will tell you it it's assembled well. Checking specs on the critical pressure component (the bolt/bbl extension) are the main failure point on most as has been documented here

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:
…..

This summer I watched one of the new fed guns puke due to gas issues at the block.

But, I haven’t seen as many guns break as you in the last 5 years of teaching.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
This summer I watched one of the new fed guns puke due to gas issues at the block.

But, I haven’t seen as many guns break as you in the last 5 years of teaching.

How many showed up with an Anderson, Del-ton, Radical, or Diamondback? I imagine someone showing up for a class would have invested in a pretty decent gun, though I'm probably wrong on that account. I've got numerous family members and neighbors that think spending $3-400 on an AR is the same as spending $800+ on one. They aren't limited in their shitty gun selection. I've seen a Tokarev AR 12 Ga break the bolt in half, only to see another one the following weekend (and it happened again, exactly as before). $189 semi-auto shotgun from an unknown maker? Sure sounds like a winner to me

Cousin of mine has a Rock Island 1911 that is hideous to look at, is so tight that taking it apart for cleaning is impossible and it MAY or MAY NOT work depending on which way the wind blows, and he carries it as his CCW. $250 from Rural King

This is the kind of stuff I deal with. The guys that see something shiny and new in an ad and go damn, that' as good as the Benelli M4 for $200 or why do I need a Springfield when I can get this for a quarter of the price?

It's not exciting, but, a S&W M&P15 Sport for $5xx is a solid platform and known good quality per a good friend who's an armorer and used to work for SOLGW. I wouldn't call the M&P15 poverty tier but rather a basic functional AR for a price we used to pay for comblock Ak's when AR's were expensive (not that comparo is inverted)

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
It's not exciting, but, a S&W M&P15 Sport for $5xx is a solid platform and known good quality per a good friend who's an armorer and used to work for SOLGW. I wouldn't call the M&P15 poverty tier but rather a basic functional AR for a price we used to pay for comblock Ak's when AR's were expensive (not that comparo is inverted)

id concur with that. they seem to be well made for the price. i guess the other issue is customer service. which i would say adds "value" to these budget options. S&W, in my experience, has been excellent in the CS department.

im sure we have had "premium" brands with some issues, none are immune. ill consider good Customer service as a factor... I think the big difference is the well made "higher" end AR's are going to manage much larger round counts between failures (MTBF) then the lower end ones.. in aggregate (the rule vs exceptions).

Budget or premium, shoot them. shoot them alot, if any issues are there it wont take 11K rounds. Thats where getting it "Right" will come in and not when you need the thing.

I cant say I am a huge AR guy. Just got tired of it toting it around while working for Uncle Sugar. But its versatility and vast amount of customization options make it a must own for me. I looked at the "tiers" and finally settled on the Ruger with the Smith M&P a close second. It came down to overall value, reputation of service after sale and my assessment of how often I would shoot it. I upgraded a little with some MagPul stuff.
So far, so good!

Well, mutedblade has cast doubt on the viability of the low-tier rifles. The only exception is seemingly PSA. Other than that, folks seem to agree that the M&P15 and AR556 are good to go, but they do cost a bit more.

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
It's not exciting, but, a S&W M&P15 Sport for $5xx is a solid platform and known good quality per a good friend who's an armorer and used to work for SOLGW.

I've heard many good things about these rifles. The problem is that the price has gone up.

List price on the base M&P 15 Sport II is 812.00 and best prices on gunbroker are about 650 to 670, and this, of course, does not include CC fees and FFL transfer fees, although buying locally would eliminate these fees.

That's still not a bad price at all for a firearm which its reputable manufacturer has had years to get right, but it takes the M&P 15 out of the lower tier category IMO.

AR-15s that you can obtain as new for less than 480 or so dollars are simply not worth looking at as far as I'm concerned.

My browser just ate a long winded reply, so here is my TLDR take 2.

Poor assembly. Poor part tolerances. Sub-par grade materials.

Of course it depends on how deep in the barrel you’re scraping for your cheap AR. Expensive ARs are not immune, as SOTAR has shown. A lot of it probably comes down to individual assemblers and luck of tolerance stacking.

I remember when M&P Sport IIs were in the 600 range on the shelf at every Academy store I visited in Houston. Considered one for while before I decided to 'roll my own' from scratch.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
It's not exciting, but, a S&W M&P15 Sport for $5xx is a solid platform and known good quality per a good friend who's an armorer and used to work for SOLGW.

I've heard many good things about these rifles. The problem is that the price has gone up.

List price on the base M&P 15 Sport II is 812.00 and best prices on gunbroker are about 650 to 670, and this, of course, does not include CC fees and FFL transfer fees, although buying locally would eliminate these fees.

That's still not a bad price at all for a firearm which its reputable manufacturer has had years to get right, but it takes the M&P 15 out of the lower tier category IMO.

AR-15s that you can obtain as new for less than 480 or so dollars are simply not worth looking at as far as I'm concerned.

yep, used to be 499 on sale but in Uncle Joe's 2023 America, they're 15% higher. I've seen more than one on the rack new or used at $599 so worth looking aroundd vs. online only.

But has been mentioned, with LE surplus Colts 6920's at $669, those would be the budget ones to buy

Just for fun, here are prices from the local Yooper Dunhams. They are not known for great prices but do have a sale occasionally. Most are listed as "in stock".
Ruger AR556 $949 Ruger MPR $1049
S&W M&P $879
Sig M400 $1249 Sig Tread 7.62 $1599
Springfield Armory Saint $1199
Daniel Defense DDM4 $1999
FN SCAR17 $3749 (must order, not in store)
Ruger Mini 14 Tactical $1049 (Yike! C'mon Ruger)
So... Tiers aside, your AR budget should probably start about 1K. Price winner is the Smith.

The Ruger ARs, I just don't like 'em. Ruger went too far afield from the typical AR-15 in some ways, such as their proprietary FSB. I don't think they're worth the money.

SA, Inc (I won't call them Springfield Armory because some truly fine firearms came out of the real Springfield Armory, which is long closed and now a museum, and SA, Inc does not live up to the name)- I'm sure their ARs are perfectly fine but my problem with these people going back more than twenty years is their sorry-ass quality control. Likely, you won't have a problem with their ARs but if you do, oh boy. Perhaps things have changed with them, but I'll never know.

The M400 is a fine rifle, but a bit overpriced IMO. If you don't mind spending the money, you'll be happy with the product.

Daniel Defense- I've built three ARs around their fine cold hammer forged barrels and they shoot great, really great. Worth every penny, although button-rifled barrels are supposed to be more accurate but I'm not a precision shooter anyhow. But, their complete rifles do nothing for me. They seem overpriced. If I'm going to invest 2000 dollars in an AR, it will be a rifle I'll build myself.

And, yeah, Ruger Mini-14s have gotten ridiculously overpriced. When the original tooling finally wore out and Ruger introduced the 581-series, it was supposed to address the chronically poor accuracy of these rifles, but in my experience, nothing really changed. For many years, I kept a Mini-14 for home defense, and this is a role in which this rifle shines. When we're talking about shots being taken inside of 10 or 12 yards, the Mini will do the job and is in some ways preferable to the AR-15 at that distance, but for what Ruger is asking for the Mini these days- forget it. Ridiculous. The price should be half of what it is.

Slight derail of the post for Mini 14. A couple years ago, I ran across a Ranch Rifle. Used but mint with a case and 6 mags. $650. Which I thought was outrageous but the accessories factored in. I mounted a Warne QD scope base and a Vortex 3X9 basic scope. In this set up, it will hold about 1.5 at 100 and is fully reliable with the usual 100 foot ejection pattern. I am happy with this and now I see the current pricing, I am tickled to death! Mine is a 583 series.
We return to our regularly scheduled AR program, now in progress.

I'm a big fan of a SOLGW rifle. Ballistic Advantage midlength barrel with gas port to SOLGW's spec, p/w 13.7" bbl and A5 lower available for a slight upcharge; VERY smooth shooters and suppressor ready. Upper to lower fit is hand selected and just a basic no frills carbine for $899-1000 street price, though prices have gone up over the last two years likely due to component prices and raw material inflation. Given what big name brands sell for similar pricing, you get a much nicer result and BA barrels are known to be accurate.

One brand I did not include in my Dunhams list:
Radical. I dont know a thing about them but Dunhams offers multiple models of Radical ARs.
And Dunhams just put the S&W M&P Sport II on sale for $699. Tempting!

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
No, I’m referring to the AR15 or M4 TDP’s. Rifles don’t need to be TDP but the TDP is there for a reason

On the AR15 there's a TDP specification for pretty much everything, like the height of the dimples staking the gas key screws.
For the military if it's not in spec it's rejected.
It very well may fail a spec and be perfectly usable but it's still not in spec as per the current TDP.
Probably why Colt has the following that they do.

Quality of components is a big deal, but so is the QC of those components. It's one thing to have a C158 bolt, its another thing to have a magnetic particle inspected C158 bolt. Its one thing to have a 4150 CMV chrome lined barrel, its another thing to have one that is MPI'd.

I also do not, for whatever reason, believe that many of these claimed parts; C158 bolts for instance are truly Carpenter 158 bolts. I have seen, and heard, of far too many lower tier guns with C158 bolts that have sheared lugs early on. Were the really C158? I dunno.

Others have mentioned proper assembly. That's a big deal to me. The simple things like gas blocks or FSBs no properly installed, which can happen to the more well regarded companies, but I'd say the frequency is way off. Properly staked gas keys on the bolt, the castle nut are issues I have seen. In fairness Rock River, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc didnt do that either.

And then there are the things that leave me wondering. Most companies use parts from Schmid Tool (S inside square) or Milwaukee Forge (M inside circle), but I notice on some of the lower tier guns that there are no forging marks on them, nor are there any on the upper receiver.