One of the other benefits to having a ton of extra mags is that you'll usually get more shooting in. As classes get larger, the instructors tolerances for holding up the entire line or string while one goofball take his time loading goes down. When there are holes in the line and your standing there with full mags and ready to go, you're usually more than welcome to jump in.

Some of this discussion makes it clear that I’ve never been to some of the types of classes described. If the “instruction” consists of mag dumps from the line and some people can’t keep up, by all means bring a duffle bag full. I have fortunately never been exposed to such training, but it demonstrates the value of learning something in advance of the course one will be attending.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Some of this discussion makes it clear that I’ve never been to some of the types of classes described. If the “instruction” consists of mag dumps from the line and some people can’t keep up, by all means bring a duffle bag full. I have fortunately never been exposed to such training, but it demonstrates the value of learning something in advance of the course one will be attending.

+1
Rarely in carbine classes I've attended are fully loaded magazines needed, or even allowed. I recall one drill, from both prone and kneeling, the instructor had us engage various steel targets (150 to 300 yards out), as the instructor called out the designated target numbers. That drill was timed, we had constant minor positional changes to deal with, and a full 30-round mag was required.

More often the instructors want us to deal with reloads, stoppages, and transitions to & from pistols. There will be instructions along the lines of loading three mags of 6 rounds each, loading two mags with 8 plus one of 4, or loading three mags of an unknown number rounds -- but roughly between 5 and 10 per mag. In the last case, a buddy loads your mags for you, so you won't know when the gun will run empty.

It really doesn't take all that long to fully load an AR magazine or three. I find a couple minutes between drills a welcome break -- to refill mags, grab a drink, "hydrate" the nearest tree with what was last hour's drink, and write down a critical mental note from the most recent drill. I can dump mags and burn up barrels on my own -- I don't need an instructor to help me.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Some of this discussion makes it clear that I’ve never been to some of the types of classes described. If the “instruction” consists of mag dumps from the line and some people can’t keep up, by all means bring a duffle bag full. I have fortunately never been exposed to such training, but it demonstrates the value of learning something in advance of the course one will be attending.

So which courses have you been to and which instructors do you recommend?

I've done EAG tactical (LE/MIL), Jedburgh corp (MIL) (I believe they are no longer in business), I took a pistol course with an outfit called Combat Hard down in Georgia (LE) and few through the army. The EAG was the highest intensity (1,000+ rounds, three days), and the Combat Hard Class was closer to what you are describing slower rate of fire, low round count, but some good speed drills.

I have trained with the following:
EAG Tactical-10+ courses
Viking Tactics/Kyle Lamb-10+ courses
Vickers Tactical/Larry Vickers-2 courses
TMACS/Pat McNamara-2 courses
CSAT/Paul Howe-1 course
Sheriff of Baghdad/John McPhee-1 course
-in addition to agency training. The only time I have ever been instructed to download a magazine is to force a reload or ensure an empty carbine when working on transition. These are not classes that encourage magazine dumps, but rather ones that want to impress upon you the importance of keeping your rifle topped off and ready to go. I load up a bunch of magazines because 1)I have them and 2)I can do this ahead of time to prepare and be able to confront any other issue that raises its head during a break and still make it back to the line in plenty of time to get as many reps as possible. If you are being asked to download a magazine during a carbine course, ask yourself what are they trying to force you to do during the drill? If it's not a reload, and they just don't want you to have a full magazine "because", your instructors have a very low opinion of their students.

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:
I have trained with the following:
EAG Tactical-10+ courses
Viking Tactics/Kyle Lamb-10+ courses
Vickers Tactical/Larry Vickers-2 courses
TMACS/Pat McNamara-2 courses
CSAT/Paul Howe-1 course
Sheriff of Baghdad/John McPhee-1 course
-in addition to agency training. The only time I have ever been instructed to download a magazine is to force a reload or ensure an empty carbine when working on transition. These are not classes that encourage magazine dumps, but rather ones that want to impress upon you the importance of keeping your rifle topped off and ready to go. I load up a bunch of magazines because 1)I have them and 2)I can do this ahead of time to prepare and be able to confront any other issue that raises its head during a break and still make it back to the line in plenty of time to get as many reps as possible. If you are being asked to download a magazine during a carbine course, ask yourself what are they trying to force you to do during the drill? If it's not a reload, and they just don't want you to have a full magazine "because", your instructors have a very low opinion of their students.

Damn, That's is one hell of a training log. Who did you like better Howe, Lamb or PAT MAC? I really liked Pat Rogers and his guys, but it looks like EAG is off line after Pat's death and I'm looking for my next class.

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:
If you are being asked to download a magazine during a carbine course, ask yourself what are they trying to force you to do during the drill? If it's not a reload, and they just don't want you to have a full magazine "because", your instructors have a very low opinion of their students.

The courses I have attended use the downloaded mags to force more frequent reloads. When we have been asked to put a bunch of rounds down range, we can load whatever we want. These instructors include:
Rifles Only
Apex Tactical
Grayguns
T3

Buddies who have attended courses at Thunder Ranch and Gunsite Academy state they also download mags to force more frequent reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
So which courses have you been to and which instructors do you recommend?

I’m not sure I can be of much help with that question. The first patrol rifle course I attended was the NRA LE instructor training school and was taught by a horrible instructor. But even he didn’t have us standing on line and dumping magazines. Most of the other courses were put on by various other law enforcement firearms instructors, not anyone in the commercial business. The second to last one I attended and that lasted all day was also pretty bad, but again he didn’t have us shoot just for the sake of making noise and piling up brass. On the other hand, the very last one I attended and presented by Palafox Solutions Group was outstanding and without question the best firearms course I’ve ever experienced. It lasted only four hours, but—mirabile dictu!—despite my having been a shooter for decades and LE firearms instructor for 13 years at the time, I actually learned some things. Their drills were focused, to the point, and clearly intended to make the expenditure of time and ammunition worthwhile.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
I really liked Pat Rogers and his guys, but it looks like EAG is off line after Pat's death and I'm looking for my next class.

Let's be completely honest EAG was Pat, I can't imagine an EAG course without Pat.

Anyways the only time I've been asked to download mags was for specific drills. The rest of the time you were the one that managed your ammo supply. You reloaded when you needed or in the middle of the drill.

Now a lot of instructors do recommend you download a 30 round magazine down to 28 rounds, but that is for reliability particularly with USGI style mags.

I'm also accustomed to the training method of downloading mags ONLY to force reloads when teaching the reload. The rest of the time, the student manages his own ammo supply. That goes in hand with courses where you shoot until the problem is solved vice shoot two rounds on a target......

Let me toss a thought out here. When you do an emergency reload in reality are you inserting a 6 round magazine in your weapon or a 30 round magazine? Those two magazines handle very differently in my opinion.

When artificial elements are introduced into training, unintended results need to be guarded against. Downloaded mags don't test mag pouches and the weight difference matters on a reload.

OP, a fun thread. Got me thinking it's time for a course again.

Lube. All of the health and comfort items can be done without, but keeping the rifle properly lubed is the biggie. 99 percent of the problems I see in rifle classes are guns that are too dry, and they choke.

DI guns (if that is what you are shooting) like to be run really wet, and most people run them way too dry. When I am taking a class, I lube the rifle to the bolt carrier is dripping, sling it off and reinstall it prior to class starting. At lunch, I'll pull the bolt back out and lube it till it drips, sling it off and reinstall it.

Sun Screen.

<<<<,Whitest guy on the planet who turns into a lobster the first morning and is miserable the rest of the week if I forget it

A lot of courses (pistol, rifle, shotty) under my belt, so here is my take...

First rifle course:

Clothing...comfortable and able to wick away perspiration (no cotton t-shirts). If you like, wool socks are also good to wear. Another plus
(especially if you are older) is to wear compression shorts. They help a lot when you are getting up and down from kneeling and prone all day.

Footwear: supportive and comfortable.

Weapon: if possible, make sure it is zeroed prior to the class. Inspect the bolt carrier and ensure that the gas key is secured. A loose gas key is a common culprit of short-stroking rifles. Lube your weapon. A generous amount of oil on the bolt and a lesser amount on the carrier rails. I use synthetic grease. A quality (two-point) sling is a must.

Equipment:

Bring as many magazines as you can. If possible, pre-load all but one or two.

Unless explicitly told to bring them, no need to have chest rigs or plate carriers. A sturdy gun belt with a holster, pistol mag carrier, and two rifle mag carriers is perfect. Add a dump pouch if ya feel it, but don't think you'll be at a disadvantage without one.


At a first class, your emphasis is on 'software' (you learning) and not on hardware (gear). Trust on this.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Knee pads.

And gloves. Doesn't matter what trigger guard I have installed, after a day (or two) of shooting, the side of my middle finger is all blistered up if I'm not wearing gloves.

Lube the rifle before class. Bring extra lube. Throw some on every 300 rounds or so.

Speaking of lubes, not all are equal. Ditch the remoil. Thicker lubes work best. Slip 2000 EWL and EWL30, Lucas Extreme gun oil, Weaponshield, are all great.

Brass case ammo only!

If you have anything bolted to your rifle (optics mounts, flashlight mounts), put blue LocTite on the screws. ALWAYS use LocTite on screw mounts. I've seen Aimpoints and scopes fall off guns.

Wrap your mags with a strip of pink electrical tape so they don't get stolen or disappear.

I laugh at gear queers. You know the guy. Watches lots of YouTube videos, wears a plate carrier with 10 mag load out on his chest, helmet, $250 high speed pants, $250 high speed jacket with Velcro cool guy patches on his shoulders. Douchbags. 75% of these guys will have bone dry guns with no lube on them at all.

They snicker as I show up with blue jeans, a comfortable shirt, and two mags stuffed in my pockets. Until I outshoot them,with a tested gun that works, while their untested shit breaks down.

50% of the parts guns that guys build on their kitchen table will fail due to improper assembly. Hammer springs installed backwards, unstaked buffer tubes that become loose, gas blocks that come loose, etc. Look your gun over with a detailed inspection and replace any worn parts.

Well, I thought I'd revisit my own thread and report back.

The class was awesome. We shot close range, long range, moving, static, and even from a helicopter chassis on a cliff that the instructor rocked back and forth to simulate flight!

Things that went right:
My rifle zero was good, and I had no accuracy issues.
My rifle, mags, optics and slings all functioned great.
Weather, hydration, clothing, etc were all a non issue. We did get some rain and it proved to be a great training tool.
Everyone in the class held their own, so the pace was quick and the standard was high.
No safety violations by anyone.

Things that didn't go well:
My mag holder solution did not work. I was losing mags frequently. Glad I learned this on the range.
I had a trigger pull mechanics issue that I didn't get figured out until late. I'm glad I worked through it, but felt that I would have gotten more from the class had I fixed it sooner.
One guy there had severe gear issues all day and it distracted a bit from the action.

The highlight of the day for me was hitting a torso sized plate at 440 yards with nothing but an unmagnified EoTech 512! That may be small potatoes to some on here, but it was awesome for me.

quote:

My mag holder solution did not work.

What were you using, and what did you witness that worked well?

Thanks.

The most important three things I learned long ago:

-Make sure your gun and your ammo work well together.

-Keep your gear as light and simple as possible. If you're running a light and RDS make sure everything is loctited and batteries are working.

-Water. Lots of water.

Thread drift, for all you experienced members, have you seen any Mini-14s (especially the updated model) at your classes? If so, how have they done? I'm thinking of taking one this summer and I am more a traditional person.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

My mag holder solution did not work.

What were you using, and what did you witness that worked well?

Thanks.

I used a belt threaded mag holder that was designed to be an all-in-one. It was designed to hold AR mags in a pouch and pistol mags in an outer pouch. I was losing pistol mags all day long.

Most of the guys in the class were part of a search and rescue team getting their TCOLE certificate, and they were all running pouches on their vest.

My new plan to test out is a 5.11 4 banger bag.

All in all it was a good lesson. One of the instructors told me thet gear evaluation is part of the class. Stuff that holds up under normal conditions sometimes gets exposed during a real training test.