OP, I have no clue about current MA laws, but assuming you can buy new lowers without restriction, those prices are BANANAS. If there is a ban on any new lowers, then I suppose you pay your money and build up your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Anubismp:
I'm an Aug man myself, hard to argue with 16" ballistics in a 10.5" sized gun that has years of R&D and takes 42 rd mags. I'm sure someone will try though. Youre also not beating on your components nearly as hard as a 10.5 gun.

Agreed. The AUG is fantastic.

quote:

Originally posted by FrozenIceman:
MDRx in FDE meets your requirements. However the waiting list for a new one is long.

The MDR has been a complete sh!tshow. How on earth could you recommend it? That’s worse than recommending one buy a MSAR.

M16 and SA80A1 was a shit show when they first came out. MDRx is 2 generations after the MDR and half the parts are not interchangeable. It has overwhelming support from established reviewers. The MDRx is virtually brand new internals save for the barrels and maybe magazine release. Heck even the polymer in the body is different.

From an MDR early adopter perspective all the gen 1 guys have free warranty upgrade and repair upgrading them to gen 2. Sure it isn't as reliable as the gen 3 MDRx but once you figure out what ammo it doesn't like it seems to operate just fine.

So the reason I recommend it is because it is the most advanced, accurate, and reliable rifle designed as a battle rifle on the planet right now.

Grande Thumb, In range TV, and Forgotten weapons put them through their paces.

Also the trigger on the MDRx is amazing out of the box. Puts it on the same realm as a decent AR trigger which is light years ahead of all other stock bullpups.

Your enthusiasm for that platform is noted. Are you still on the waiting list for yours, or did you get it and run thousands of rounds through it to the point where you're comfortable recommending it out of your own personal experience?

Objectively speaking, JoshNC is right. I looked into the MDR a few years back and read seemingly nothing but horror stories about it. It would take a lot more than one guy suddenly popping up on this forum cheerleading for Desert Tech to even make me consider looking into them again. I'm not even motivated enough to watch the youtuber reviews because of the shit reputation Desert Tech earned for themselves, rightly or wrongly.

When it comes to a lengthy proven track record, MDR-anything isn't a blip on the radar compared to the Tavor, and not even in the same hemisphere as the AUG. You can make all the claims you want, but you're literally the first guy I've seen recommending them, anywhere. Logic tells me that if it was quite what you say it is, there would be more conversation about it. I say all this having initially been really impressed with and interested in the design. I love bullpups and am starting to build a little collection of them, but there's no way in hell I would even consider buying an MDRXwhatever it is this year over an AUG, let alone recommend them to anyone else.

quote:

So the reason I recommend it is because it is the most advanced, accurate, and reliable rifle designed as a battle rifle on the planet right now

Show me somewhere, anywhere, someone in the 'battle rifle' business issuing thisto people who would use it in the sense of the word?

Not gonna lie, I have a serious chubby for the X95 in FDE.

Yep, I received my MDRx last week (I was in line for about 9 weeks) and they even added some free Pmags (at my request) due to how long I waited. However thousands of rounds definitely take time (currently using M80 Ball from American Marksman). But from what I understand most of the people who don't like the original MDR stopped after a few dozen rounds (usually due to stoppages and got fed up for good reason). If that is your requirement I think you will have to disregard nearly everyone talking about it on this forum (and will need to go to some of the reviews I post below).

Also the DT warranty guys are amazing, My rifle had a scuffed up takedown screws. With all the horror stories we heard I figured I would try my luck and see how bad it was. I sent an email to them about it and 24 hours later they responded and sent me a whole new screw set as well as a bunch of swag.

As far as my recommendations goes, my use of said rifle, overall design and reviews made by professionals. There was definitely a lot of deserved vitriol for the first MDR's that came out, however I am impressed with what they did with the criticism (they actually released multiple engineering level presentations on their findings and action items post criticism I attached the two that impressed me the most below).

But ya I am not surprised that you haven't seen many of proponents of the MDRx (outside of the MDR forums on bullpups forums), the positive reviews for the gen 2 MDR came out last year and unless you look for them (which is what I did when I realized the platform existed earlier this year) you probably won't find them. Lots of MDRx written reviews are popping up now too, just do a google search for them and you should find them.

For me, these are the videos that really made me buy this thing sight unseen. But ya, I definitely wouldn't have touched the original MDR. In range has also run it through a few competitions in Tuscon in 6.5 Creedmore magtech if you want to see where he placed with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFxw1d6z8dk <First gen Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2Jzn6qCHQ <Second Gen Review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DabLcqavXJ0< First Gen Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZnGFA5uaNM<Second Gen Review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ed01kq20dM<DT Response to In Range criticism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVlsS23TDAA<DT Test video of gen 2 with different ammo brands

For the last two videos, if you can point to any arms manufacturer who has been this publicly transparent on how much their gun sucked and committed to fixing it I would be impressed.

@AllenInWV Yep X95 was definitely on my short list and if I pulled the trigger last year I probably would have bought that one before I realized the MDR/MDRx was a thing.

What gave me pause was the 'questionable' accuracy of it (Apparently it isn't exactly free floated and has a front trunion spacer that warps the barrel a bit). The first gen X95's also had some accuracy issues due to some parts making contact with the barrel assembly when they shouldn't have resulting in between 2 and 5 MOA, but from what I understand those have been fixed and it has been stabilized around 2 MOA. Their Tavor 7 is supposed to be better but apparently the delays were due to accuracy issues as well but they weren't able to get it below 1.5 MOA or so.

@Hrcjon, the Battle Rifle reference is in most of the above reviews, but Garand Thumb meets your requirements for in the business.

quote:

Originally posted by FrozenIceman:
M16 and SA80A1 was a shit show when they first came out. MDRx is 2 generations after the MDR and half the parts are not interchangeable. It has overwhelming support from established reviewers. The MDRx is virtually brand new internals save for the barrels and maybe magazine release. Heck even the polymer in the body is different.

From an MDR early adopter perspective all the gen 1 guys have free warranty upgrade and repair upgrading them to gen 2. Sure it isn't as reliable as the gen 3 MDRx but once you figure out what ammo it doesn't like it seems to operate just fine.

So the reason I recommend it is because it is the most advanced, accurate, and reliable rifle designed as a battle rifle on the planet right now.

Grande Thumb, In range TV, and Forgotten weapons put them through their paces.

Also the trigger on the MDRx is amazing out of the box. Puts it on the same realm as a decent AR trigger which is light years ahead of all other stock bullpups.

The issues with the M16 were due to incorrect powder, not the design, manufacturing, and QC/QA. The SA80 is still a turd despite multiple attempts to unf&&k it.

YouTube personality videos are for entertainment only. Drawing conclusions based on their “tests” is silly.

How many MDX are in the wild? And of those, how many have multiple thousands of trouble free rounds through them? Outside of the factory and its shills. I am willing to bet either none or less than five.

The MDR fiasco was a total sh$tshow. There was a very very lengthy thread on arfcom with owner’s experiences and mind numbing posts by cheerleaders with total turds that kept going back to DT.

What professional users are shooting an MDX? And I don’t mean YouTube personalities who are posting reviews.

My serial is in the 5000 range, so assuming they didn't renumber with the MDRx I would assume about that many.

From what I understand it was a lot of different things for the original M16, powder was one, the not issuing cleaning kits, corrosion resistance (everywhere) wasn't great, magazine issues, etc. My point is that the first gen of anything novel is usually bad and requires tweaking.

I recommend you look into Forgotten Weapons and Grande Thumb a bit more. The former is a weapon specialist which includes his day job of auctioning and authenticating rare weapons. The later is current military as a SERE instructor that does Garand thumb as a hobby (and with approval of his command).

Here are other written MDRx Reviews if you like, but they usually skip over the shit show that was the original MDR and exactly what was changed in the MDRx and why (unlike the gen 1 reviews I linked above). Seriously watch the Gen 1 videos I linked above and it will show exactly how bad the MDR was at release.

https://www.guns.com/news/2020...srt-tech-mdrx-review
https://www.gunsamerica.com/di...-creedmoor-reviewed/
https://www.snipershide.com/sh...drx-mdrx-se.6984092/
http://bullpupforum.com/index....drfqs4&topic=14398.0
https://www.americanrifleman.o...20-desert-tech-mdrx/
http://bullpupforum.com/index....drfqs4&topic=14623.0

Garand Thumb guy is a professional user in the sense that he was paid to kill people with guns if that is what you are asking or are you asking why a gun that has only been on the market for 9 month's hasn't been adopted by the military?

Desert Tech also claims 2 Michigan Police agencies were equipped with MDRx rifles (with collab from vortex and magpul) but I have not been able to confirmed anything from a gov source on it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FrozenIceman,

quote:

Originally posted by FrozenIceman:
My serial is in the 5000 range, so assuming they didn't renumber with the MDRx I would assume about that many.

From what I understand it was a lot of different things for the original M16, powder was one, the not issuing cleaning kits, corrosion resistance wasn't great etc. My point is that the first gen of anything novel is usually bad and requires tweaking.

I recommend you look into Forgotten Weapons and Grande Thumb a bit more. The former is a weapon specialist which includes his day job of auctioning and authenticating rare weapons. The later is current military as a SERE instructor that does Garand thumb as a hobby (and with approval of his command).

Here are other written MDRx Reviews if you like, but they usually skip over the shit show that was the original MDR and exactly what was changed in the MDRx and why (unlike the gen 1 reviews I linked above).

https://www.guns.com/news/2020...srt-tech-mdrx-review
https://www.gunsamerica.com/di...-creedmoor-reviewed/
https://www.snipershide.com/sh...drx-mdrx-se.6984092/
http://bullpupforum.com/index....drfqs4&topic=14398.0
https://www.americanrifleman.o...20-desert-tech-mdrx/

Garand Thumb guy is a professional user in the sense that he was paid to kill people with guns if that is what you are asking or are you asking why a gun that has only been on the market for 9 month's hasn't been adopted by the military?

Desert Tech also claims 2 Michigan Police agencies were equipped with MDRx rifles (with collab from vortex and magpul) but I have not been able to confirmed anything from a gov source on it.

I’m completely familiar with both FW and Garand Thumb. Interesting guys. I don’t make messiahs out of any personality. Is Garand Thumb shooting an MDX exclusively? Or is he saying it’s a novel design?

Kudos to you for picking up an MDX. I hope yours is reliable and look forward to an update when you have a few thousand rounds through it.

I am not saying they are gun messiah's I am saying that there are positive reviews of the gen 2 MDR's and they are decently reliable. You wanted positive reviews (as well as the gen 1 negative reviews from them). They exist but you have to do some digging.

Right now we have the word of people who had terrible experiences with the original MDR and word of people have reviewed the later model stuff.

Matter of fact, I haven't actually found any negative reviews (forum or otherwise) on the MDRx rifle. I have seen people complaining about the older MDR, the lack of reverse compatibility of MDRx parts into their MDR, and people complaining about the wait.

And thank you, on the kudos. I will definitely report back periodically on how it performs. However I can say this definitively: the MDRx trigger is amazing. Way, way better than the X95 and most AR triggers I have shot. At the very least whatever they did there on it was fantastic.

I am currently mulling over a MDRx myself. I have been playing around with the idea of pulling the trigger on one for a while.

From my experience it seems to be a solid rifle, but you probably won't be able to find one sitting on the shelves in your favorite gun store. It seems the MDRx is being scooped up within a day of hitting the shelves where I am at. Best chance is Xtreme Guns and Ammo (where I ordered mine). You can custom order it how you want and they claim they are the largest supplier of DT gear so can leverage that to make sure you get your stuff (but it is a long wait probably 8 weeks minimum at this point).

I have decided to add a Tavor X95 to my small collection if I can find one.

My FFL was sold out in two days before I could get back there and buy it.

If someone has one to sell please reach out, email is in my profile.

I also listed my WTB in the classifieds.

quote:

Originally posted by sig2392:
I have decided to add a Tavor X95 to my small collection if I can find one.

My FFL was sold out in two days before I could get back there and buy it.

If someone has one to sell please reach out, email is in my profile.

I also listed my WTB in the classifieds.

I've seen a good number of them on GB for reasonable prices. I think that would be a great choice and I wouldn't rule out a Tavor SAR if you find a good price on one.

I recently (8/28/2021) purchased a Desert Tech MDRX 308 from the Hub in Show Low, AZ. I took the rifle out the same day and immediately began experiencing malfunctions with the rifle. I had a friend with me who is also familiar with weapons and he had the same issues. I contacted the retailer who advised me to bring it to them. After servicing the rifle and testing it themselves they indicated that there was something wrong with the brand new rifle but that I would need to contact the manufacturer for warranty issues. I contacted the manufacturer and when they eventually returned my communication, they indicated that “All our firearms come with a transferable lifetime warranty” and advised me to send it to them for warranty repairs. The following is a summary of my experience:
Initially the magazine would eject after firing a single round. Any size magazine too. I bent and filed the magazine catch to enable it to work temporarily. Desert tech replaced it on the first warranty claim.
On the first day of shooting one of the screws fell out of the left hand side of the rifle, in the desert, and was lost. DT replaced it on the first warranty request.

The most persistent problem is the cycling of ammo or frequent jamming. I have tried several manufacturers of 308 rounds Norma, Winchester, Fiocchi, PMC to rule out ammo inconsistencies. And since the rifle is advertised as dual ammo compatible I also tested 7.62 x51 Magtec, Armscor, PPU. The most problematic 308 round is anything with a soft tip intended for hunting. The gunsmith I took the rifle to after 400 rounds stripped it, cleaned it, lubed it and tested it on his range with the ammo he had and experienced the same issues I had in the field. The manufacturers advise to me was that “the rifle is not fully broke-in until 1000 rounds have been fired thru it” and recommended I put more ammo thru it. It did not chamber correctly at 1000 rounds and still fails to function at 1500 rounds.
The PMC and Winchester 308 ammo initially used tended to lightly dimple and not fire the primer on the second round chambered after the first is fired. I suspected the rifle was double firing. After inspecting the factory trigger assembly I notice what appears to be excessive wear, given only 400 rounds had fired at this point, to the trigger assembly. After each round fired the factory trigger has a latch that catches the hammer so it will not fire again. This latch is cutting a notch into the hammer shaft. When you rack it back to clear the unspent round from this issue the rifle doesn't always kick out the cartridge like normal, even if you rack it fast and hard. The unspent round and the next round in the magazines end up jammed in the chamber together sometimes.
I replaced the factory trigger with Jard Sear trigger, and it came from the manufacturer out of adjustment, not DTs fault but while out of adjustment it produced the same 308 double fire as I described above. The rifle fires the first round, chambers the second and let’s go of the hammer. When you eject the unspent second round it is lightly dimpled. The rifle will also insert two rounds in the chamber if you just try to clear the unspent round with the magazine still inserted. After adjusting the disconnect screw on the new trigger the riffle fires 308 PMC solid tip more consistently and while on the Normal gas block setting. When the rifle was sent back to the manufacturer for the first warranty request it had the factory trigger installed and they did not do anything to it but apply more grease. It still looks excessively warn and I only use the Jard trigger moving forward.
I also noticed the trigger would occasionally get stuck after pressing it. In some cases just waiting a second would allow the trigger to spring forward and on others the rifle had to be tapped or beat on to release the trigger. Basically the rifle is acting as if I am holding the trigger for a prolonged period of time before resetting and letting me pull the trigger again. I don’t believe this issue is related to the above issue as the factory trigger has a secondary latch to catch the hammer if after cycling a live round there is still a finger depressing the trigger. And it appears to be working properly. Upon inspection the trigger rod that connects the front group to the rear assembly has metal burs on the rear of it that appear to be catching on the plastic guides inside the rifle. I removed the rod and polished it smooth with a file. No more sticking but DT has also not made mention of this issue.
Only rarely did the 308 cartridge miss or get stuck in the forward eject system or chamber. The 7.62 x51 ammo I tested before sending the rifle in the first time frequently got stuck in or missed the forward eject system. The PPU 7.62 x51 ammo I initially tested frequently got stuck in the chamber and if the gas block was not turned down the riffle will rip the rim off the cartridge stuck in the chamber. The rifle cycles nicely if you leave the original forward eject port off allowing the 7.62 x51 cartridges to fly freely out of the side and lubricate every round. DT replaced the forward ejection panel on the first warranty request. I was able to get 43 rounds of 7.62 x 51 through it afterwards without any jams related to the new forward ejection panel.
On the second day of shooting the cartridge ejection port dust cover hatch started to fall apart. The pin worked it's way nearly out and it stopped working correctly afterwards. The latch doesn't hold it closed when you want it closed and the spring doesn't hold it open when you want it open. The 308 cartridges appear to push past it regardless and I usually have it removed for the 762 ammo. DT replaced the forward ejection port on the first warranty request and the dust cover hatch with it. With about 100 rounds thru it is still intact.

Initially the rear tear-down push pin was removed and reinserted relatively easily, but lately the pin is difficult to remove and reinstall. The rubber butt stalk and two halves of the rifle need to be squeezed and manipulated in order to reinsert the pin. I believe the issue above where a 7.62 x51 cartridge was frequently getting stuck between the ejection port and bolt carrier might have been putting outward pressure on and deforming the butt of the rifle. Nothing appears to have been done about the but of the rifle and push pin. They are still difficult to remove and reinstall and there are gaps when reassembled.

After not receiving a response from Desert Tech for several weeks I start posting my experience to a few DT related YouTube channel comment section, blogs and digital magazine comment sections I received communication from Jeff Wood of https://coldboremiracle.com/ (coldboremirakle@gmail.com). Jeff let me know that he is Desert Techs go to repair man and that he could fix it. I finally received an email from DT indicating I needed to fill out a warranty request form to generate a RMA number and receive the prepaid shipping label.

It took about a month to return to me and when I received it, the contents where in a new hard plastic case that also include a repair statement from Desert Tech. The statement indicates that a few parts were repaired or replaced and that the 25-round magazine I sent them “did not work at all” and that they “do not recommend use of 25rnd mags with the MDRx/MDR as the mags have proven to be very unreliable. The marketing flyer that comes with the rifle from DT indicates that the magazine capacity for this rifle is 10/20/30/40. The 10-round magazine is the only one that shoots reliably. The statement also indicates that Desert Tech was able to accomplish its diagnosis of “good to go” after firing only 20 rounds of S&B 147 gr. 308.

The freshly returned rifle appeared cleaned and well lubricated. Nothing was done about the factory trigger that appears prematurely warn. I replace the factory trigger with the aftermarket Jard trigger works flawlessly. The forward ejection panel that was giving the 7.62 x51 rounds so much trouble appears new and the dust cover flap is now working properly. The magazine catch latch was replace with one that does not appear to have the same poor casting as the original and did not need to be manipulated to work.

On the first trip out shooting after the rifle was returned to me I began by using 10-round magazines shooting 308 or 7.62 x51 cold. I was able to put a couple a magazine of each ammo thru it without issue. As I switch to the 20-round magazine, the gun is already heated up a bit and still on the Normal gas block setting, the 308 rounds start to jam towards the end of the clip (round 16-18). The old cartridge is ejected fine, but the new cartridge is only halfway in the chamber when the action slams closed on it. I adjusted the gas block one setting towards Advanced and then Silenced and I get the same jam. On the final Advanced setting of the gas block the 308 jam is reduced to every other clip. Switching back to 7.62 x51 20-round magazine I set the gas block to Normal and while still hot the 3rd round fired has the rim ripped off the cartridge and is left in the chamber. After removing the spent cartridge and cleaning the rifle I call it a day.

The next day I go out and buy the exact same ammo Desert Tech used to test the rifle and two new magazines, a 10 and 20. The first two 10-round magazines of 308 go smoothly and then the first 20-round magazine of 308 jams like before on round 17. On the second 20-round magazine and the 16th round in the clip the round does not discharge but instead gets stuck in the chamber with the action locked on behind it. So stuck I could not safely dislodge it or tear it down at the range. When I get home and tear it down, I discover the unspent round is the shape of a banana and was crammed into the chamber. I sent an email and pictures to Desert Tech the same day.

In the meantime, I received communication from Jeff that my riffle never made it to him, he was out of town on a hunt. Desert Tech had someone else perform the warranty work.
This is the most recently received communication from Glen Fullmer after informing him with pictures that the rifle is still not fixed and becoming more dangerous:

"Good afternoon Scott,
Please find the warranty claim form attached. If you will complete it and get it back to me, I’ll generate another RMA. Please note that if we can’t identify a defect in the rifle or duplicate the issues you’re reporting, we will charge for testing and evaluation ($50), ammunition used, and any shipping/repackaging costs. Thank you.

Glen Fullmer
Warranty Manager
Desert Tech
801-975-7272 Ext. 148
g.fullmer@deserttech.com"

I have told Desert Tech that I would prefer a refund in exchange for the return their product but they are declining to respond to that particular request. I sent the second warranty form to Glen this morning (11/5/2021). I am seeking to have a professional 3rd party evaluate the rifle before I send it back to DT.
The Gunsmith at Legendary Guns indicates the rifle is short cycling and needs to have the gas block ported as well as have some machine work done on the chamber and action. Both have sharp or jagged edges that would be attributed to ammo getting snagged or chewed up. They indicate the repairs to cost roughly $200.00

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
Building an AR is as simple as can be. Buy a bare lower plus a parts kit. Assembling the lower with a parts kit will take you 20-30 minutes the first time, and 5 minutes after doing a few.

Then buy a complete upper, takes 60 seconds to install on the lower.

I have a Tavor, but prefer the AR's. Have several where I purchased Seekins lowers, which are extremely good. For uppers I have two POF 415's, plus a Colt 6920.

I assembled a lower using an Anderson lower and a CMMG lower parts kit. One tip that the CSR at CMMG gave me was to assemble the lower inside of the biggest ziplock bag you can find. It makes it much easier to find a spring that flies away or a pin that you might drop.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottp81:
I recently (8/28/2021) purchased a Desert Tech MDRX 308 from the Hub in Show Low, AZ.

I feel your pain.
I have NOTHING good to say about DTA and the MDR.
I went through all the same crap you are now a few years ago.
I eventually ended up simply getting rid of the stupid rifle.
The MDR is an utter piece of shit.
DTA should be drawn and quartered for foisting this trash onto the market.
I'll buy a highpoint before ever again buying a desert tech.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...990041544#2990041544

Sig2392- you need to read the Massachusetts Assault weapons page.
Banned by name - Colt AR, AK
Banned by 2 or more features- detachable mag, flash hider
Banned as a clone or copy of a banned AR. Uses same trigger group, bolt carrier, charging handle.

The only loophole I can identify is a pre ban (prior to 1994) or an already registered lower in the State of Mass.
Is Tavor legal in 2021?
Smith & Wesson are moving their AR production to Tenn due to these restrictive gun laws.

If you can swallow the price, I think the X95 is a better choice than the AR, especially if it's going to do house gun duty, in addition to everything else and AR can do. It's short and handy while still having a 16" barrel. In point of fact I think it's shorter than a 10.5" barrel AR pistol with a fully collapsed stoc...er...stabilizing brace, and way shorter than a 16" barreled AR. The X95 trigger is eons better than a SAR trigger. And I've dry fired an X95 with an aftermarket trigger (Geissele maybe?) and had a WHOHHHHH moment when I felt how good it was (compared to stock.) So if you want a better trigger, you can get it.

quote:

Originally posted by sig2392:
Behind enemy lines in Massachusetts when I am not in Florida.

I want MA compliant so I don't get jammed up coming here half the year.

A dealer is selling these:

LMT Defender 2000 Stripped Lower - $500
- LMT Defender COMPLETE Lower - $1100
- LMT MARS-L Lower (fully ambidextrous LPK internals factory installed) - $800
- LMT MARS-L with trigger guard and LPK installed - 850$
- LMT MARS-L Complete lower with SOPMOD STOCK 1500$

I have no clue if these are a good deal or not.

Or what do do with them.

Most pre ban finished ARs are going for $2000 and up do to the Ban.

Jeez... with those prices I'd just grab a Tavor. By the time you finish a decent build out you are up in that price range any way. $500 for a stripped lower?! Gotta be kidding me.

A PSA lower is $50.00