We spent last week at the in-laws' in Florida and as usual I had to make the rounds of the local gunshops while we were down there. While doing so, I stumbled across a decent deal on a nice No4 Mk1. Bore was ok, it was stocked up pretty well, and had the micrometer sight, which I really wanted. I decided I had to have it, so broke out my C&R, she actually called the ATF to confirm everything was kosher, and we were set to go. Then she realized that it was a consignment gun and they have some goofy rule down there about holding used guns for 15 days to make sure it's not stolen. I wasn't going to be there that long, and didn't want to deal with shipping it, so I decided to pass. Probably a good thing as I ended up spending my "gun money" on some other stuff I found at another shop (Primers!!!), but it still stings a little to let one get away. We got home today and I decided I needed to console myself by spending some time with the best Enfield...the 1917 American Enfield.



I've had a little project in the works for a while, and all the tools I needed finally showed up in the mailbox while we were gone. Consistent with WW1 doctrine, these guns were set up to shoot at longer ranges...the lowest setting on the the sights hits 6-8" high at 100, which is the distance that I most often have available to shoot at. The aperture on the factory sight is also ridiculously big, so it's hard to consistently center the front post for precise target shooting.

I spent some time and money "unsporterizing" this gun after I bought it, so I didn't want to do anything permanent to the factory rear sight. I found a cheap rear sight slide online that was cheap because it was out of spec and a very tight fit on the ladder. I spent some time with a file and opened up the channels a bit so that it will slide.

I also had some old Williams levergun sights with screw-in apertures lying around, which offer a much finer aperture than the factory M1917 peep. Problem is, the threads on the Williams peep were some goofy size that I couldn't find a tap for anywhere, so I had to order one online, and even that was hard to find.

I drilled and tapped the donor aperture slide to accept the Williams peep, and filed down the bottom of the bezel so that I could reduce the elevation even further. There's not much material there, but with some blue loctite it stayed perfectly tight through the entire range session.



The smaller aperture made for a much finer sight picture, and with a few adjustments I was able to put up the following group at 100 yards off a bench. I'll take it for a 105 y/o rifle.



If chopping up a factory Eddystone rear sight makes you cringe, I get it. I kinda did too. But the donor part was already out of spec, and to put the gun back to original is as simple as removing the stopper screw, sliding it off, and sliding the original back on. Nothing permanent, and the gun is much more shootable this way.

It's confession time...anybody else have any bubba'd milsurp stories? Or Enfield stories? I currently have my eye on a No5, but if I buy it I'm going to shoot it, and am not sure if the wondering zero issue is something I need to be concerned about. I can't decided if I should do it, or hold out for another good deal on a No4 to come along.

I had been looking for an Enfield No. 5 MK 1 "Jungle carbine" for more than a decade.
Being unwilling to buy such a gun online (along with living in South Dakota) had a pretty severe tendency to limit my choices.
Over the years every example I came across was either a POS, incorrect, or radically overpriced.
A few months back I came walking into my part-time gun shop gig on a Sunday morning and low and behold there was the best looking Enfield No. 5 MK 1 I had come across, having just been traded in, sitting in the back room!
A 1946 production gun from ROF Fazakerly with a great bore and very good original finish on both metal and stock; fully correct (sorry, no pics). It immediately went on layaway, wandering zero stories be damned, and then proceeded to buy out our remaining stock of pre-covid priced S&B .303 ammo.
I haven't shot it yet, but spring is coming, and I now have a supply of stripper clips!
Sometimes the gun gods smile brightly on the patient.

That's awesome! Always encouraging to hear stories where patience pays off. Would love to see pics and get a range report when you shoot that thing!

quote:

Originally posted by Dakota Slim:
I had been looking for an Enfield No. 5 MK 1 "Jungle carbine" for more than a decade.
Being unwilling to buy such a gun online (along with living in South Dakota) had a pretty severe tendency to limit my choices.
Over the years every example I came across was either a POS, incorrect, or radically overpriced.
A few months back I came walking into my part-time gun shop gig on a Sunday morning and low and behold there was the best looking Enfield No. 5 MK 1 I had come across, having just been traded in, sitting in the back room!
A 1946 production gun from ROF Fazakerly with a great bore and very good original finish on both metal and stock; fully correct (sorry, no pics). It immediately went on layaway, wandering zero stories be damned, and then proceeded to buy out our remaining stock of pre-covid priced S&B .303 ammo.
I haven't shot it yet, but spring is coming, and I now have a supply of stripper clips!
Sometimes the gun gods smile brightly on the patient.

Nice deal. Man, I have found some neat old surplus guns while traveling the backroads of SD.

Please ask your shoulder for forgiveness before you torch off a bunch of factory/military loads in that thing…. They buck around..

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:

Nice deal. Man, I have found some neat old surplus guns while traveling the backroads of SD.

Please ask your shoulder for forgiveness before you torch off a bunch of factory/military loads in that thing…. They buck around..

I fully expect it to beat my 155 pound frame around pretty good! It's such a short, light, handy gun, but man that .303 cal is gonna bark and punch on both ends!
What's the old saying?; Kills on one end, maims on the other?!

Good eye, man!

Don't ever let that rifle get away.

Very nice M1917.

Here's my British Enfield family:

1916 Eddystone P14
1918 Enfield No. 1 Mk. III
1936 BSA No. 1 Mk. III
1942 Maltby No. 4 Mk. I
1946 BSA No. 5 Mk. I

(Not pictured, but my Enfield collection also includes a 1919 Eddystone M1917, and an 1967 Indian 2A1, a .308 rifle based on the No. 1 Mk. III.)

Be careful, .303's multiply.

I was hoping you'd comment, RogueJSK. I couldn't remember if you had a No5 or not. How does your shoot compared to the others?

quote:

Be careful, .303's multiply.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of ! They also had a nice P14 at that shop, but it was mercifully priced high enough that it was completely out of consideration. That's some beautiful wood on yours!

I've only plinked around with the No. 5, so I can't comment on its long range accuracy. But based on my involvement with Enfield and milsurp forums over the past couple decades, the purported "wandering zero" issue seems to be more of a rumor than an actual phenomenon experienced by No. 5 Enfield shooters.

As for the recoil, it's not as bad as folks make it out to be. All the talk of "maiming your shoulder" is grossly overblown.

The stoutest recoiling milsurp I've fired is a Steyr M95 carbine in 8x56R. But even that, while it'll definitely get your attention, isn't to the point of being obnoxious or painful.

Basic modern hunting long guns in things like 12 Gauge Super Magnum or .300 Win Mag are worse. And then you get into stuff like the custom magnum calibers, elephant guns, and similar. Point being, there are plenty of other better ways to punish yourself with recoil, if that's what you're after.

Yeah, I don't plan to beat it our myself up. I'd likely shoot predominantly light cast loads through it at 200 yards and in...maybe further a few times a year when I can talk my buddy into setting up the steel at the farm. My son's SMLE has done surprisingly well with that once you figure out where to set the sights.

I just don't want a repeat of my Mini-14 that couldn't stay on paper at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I've only plinked around with the No. 5, so I can't comment on its long range accuracy. But based on my involvement with Enfield and milsurp forums over the past couple decades, the purported "wandering zero" issue seems to be more of a rumor than an actual phenomenon experienced by No. 5 Enfield shooters.

As for the recoil, it's not as bad as folks make it out to be. All the talk of "maiming your shoulder" is grossly overblown.

The stoutest recoiling milsurp I've fired is a Steyr M95 carbine in 8x56R. But even that, while it'll definitely get your attention, isn't to the point of being obnoxious or painful.

Basic modern hunting long guns in things like 12 Gauge Super Magnum or .300 Win Mag are worse. And then you get into stuff like the custom magnum calibers, elephant guns, and similar. Point being, there are plenty of other better ways to punish yourself with recoil, if that's what you're after.

I was going to say the little straight pull M95 will get your attention quick. They aren’t bad when shooting standing but, after 50 rounds full power loads seated at a Benchrest in a t-shirt they both get your shoulder tired. So does the old Soviet M38 Mosin Carbine. Or my old retired Lt’s Iranian Mauser 8mm carbine. I can’t remember the model number off the top of my head.

I think a lot of the problem w/ the #5 is the smaller than the buttplate hard rubberish “recoil pad” that has hardened over time…

Well, I have no self control. Decided to roll the dice and ordered a No5 today from Classic. Guess we'll see what shows up.

Be sure to post pics when you get it. I'm interested to see what arrives.

Not to be a downer, but in the milsurp forum world, Classic Firearms has becomes notorious for overpromising and underdelivering with regard to condition on surplus firearms.

But even if it's ugly, hopefully it'll still be mechanically sound.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Be sure to post pics when you get it. I'm interested to see what arrives.

Not to be a downer, but in the milsurp forum world, Classic Firearms has becomes notorious for overpromising and underdelivering with regard to condition on surplus firearms.

But even if it's ugly, hopefully it'll still be mechanically sound.

Yeah, I'm aware of the reputation, and I hate buying sight unseen, especially from them, but it's the best price I've seen on a No5 in years (The LGS has had one on the shelf for months that is pretty rough, and they want $1100). I'm not expecting cosmetic perfection, and I don't mind a little cleanup project, but I am hoping for a decent shooter. I did pay the extra $30 for handpicked, so I guess we'll see if that was worth it or not. I'll be sure to post pics when I get it.

Well, one thing I can’t complain about is ship times from Classic. I ordered the gun on Monday night, and they shipped it out the next day. It arrived Wednesday night. Packaging was well done and thorough, and the rifle was well protected.

First cosmetic impressions: This is a pretty ugly gun. I’m not sure if I should be glad I paid the $30 extra for hand-picked or not. Part of me feels like they just grabbed one out of the pile…the other part thinks that if this is the best of 10, then the others ones must be REALLY bad. Bluing is completely gone on the barrel and all the stock metal, and mostly gone on all the exposed surfaces of the receiver. The bayonet lug was cut off at some point in its life, and not gently. The stock is sound, but dinged pretty good, and caked with East-African crud (no huge surprise there). Most of the markings are very faint or completely worn off. One thing I will say is that there is no rust…these must have come from a dry climate.













The import mark, while nasty electropencil, is at least discretely under the barrel.




Inside and underneath: The good news is that it is actually a No 5. It has the proper lightening cuts in the barrel, and a No 5 bolt with the hole in the handle. The bolt isn’t serialized so no way to tell if it’s original to the gun, but I did sharpie the engagement surfaces of the locking lugs to make sure they’re both in contact with the receiver on lockup. The stock is well-fitted, and even had a piece of bedding cloth still under the handguard. Inside was completely full of Ethiopian gack. We actually found some dead bugs in there. This wasn’t unexpected…I spent about 3 hours detail stripping it and cleaning all the metal parts with mineral spirits, then re-lubing. The stock got a good scrubbing with BLO to clean off the scum.




The Bore: This is where things go bad. Out of the box, it was like a black hole in there…just sucking up the light. After a good scrubbing, I could see the lands, or maybe at least where the lands used to be. It is really worn…so worn, in fact, that it won’t spin a cleaning rod with a tight-fitting jag and patch as you push it through the bore. This concerned me. It does not, however, swallow a bullet at the muzzle.




At the range: Took it out today and shot it. My plan all along has been to shoot cast bullets through this gun over a light load of Unique. We do this out of my sons’s SMLE, (357fuzz put me onto the idea) and they work great…plus they’re easier on the brass (a HUGE deal on an Enfield, especially because finding .303 brass has become very difficult), easier on the shooter, and easier on the gun. I figured we’d try the load I worked up for the SMLE, which is a gas-checked and powdercoated 187gr LRN sized to .313 over 9.0gr of Unique.

I wasn’t sure if they’d even chamber, given that they are fire-formed and neck-sized to the SMLE, but they did. No huge surprise that this gun is at least as loose as that one, which still has pretty sharp rifling. I shot them at 25 yards, and got this. My son, who can be sort of a smart-alec, looked at me and said “Dad, I think you bought a musket!”



Clearly, there were some significant stabilization issues with the No 5. We moved back to 100 and shot the SMLE with the same bullets…it was putting up 1.5”-2” groups, composed of nice round holes. My son wanted to shoot his K31, so while he did that I was googling how to replace a barrel on a No 5, and contemplating if there was any way I could get Classic to take this piece of junk back.

When he got done with the K31, I realized we had some 180gr PPU factory .303 in the box. While I was slightly concerned that this higher pressure ammo factory might blow the whole thing up in my face, I decided I had to at least try it. We went back up to 25 and I gingerly held the gun away from my face and put a round into the target. Lo and behold, a round hole! And the gun didn’t blow up!

So we went back to 50. 3 round holes, about 2” apart! And then back to 100, and shot a few groups trying to get it zeroed. We finally got it pretty close and I managed to put up this group:



Not too shabby for a carbine born in 1946 with a worn out bore. This was the best group I managed, but the others weren’t all that bad…probably averaged about 3-4”.

I think the bore diameter is off enough from the SMLE that my cast bullets aren’t going to work at .313. I need to slug it and figure out where I need to size them at and try again. Clearly there’s enough rifling in there to get the job done with the right load.

So here she is, all cleaned up in some natural lighting. It’s far from perfect, not exactly a desirable collectible, and won’t win any beauty contests…but it’s definitely light and fun to shoot. The action is typical Enfield…slick and fast. The cleaned up safety snicks on and off in a very satisfying manner. The balance is great, and I honestly didn’t find the recoil all that punishing, even with the factory loads. The trigger sucks pretty bad, but hey, it’s a milsurp and that’s to be expected. The sights are awesome. Overall, I feel like I got a fair deal for my money. I wish the bore was better, but if it’ll shoot I guess that’s all I can ask for.

Your No. 5 was previously somewhere in this filthy pile found by Inter Ordnance/Royal Tiger Imports in an Ethopian warehouse:

Yep. Poor thing. Wouldn't mind hand picking from that pile as I'm sure I could find something decent, but it kinda sucks having to depend on somebody else to select it for you.

Nice write up. You are definitely needing bigger cast bullets w/ her LOL!!! I love all the lightening cuts they put all over the #5. Bolt handle, barrel around the chamber area, all over the receiver, the bottom metal of the trigger guard/magazine well area. Seemed to have been a lot of work and machining to really save a little amount of weight.

How is the supposedly rubbery type butt pad?

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:

How is the supposedly rubbery type butt pad?

Like a hockey puck !

Honestly, even with the 180gr factory ammo, I didn't think it was that bad. But then again, I shoot an 03A3 a lot.

I slugged the barrel today, and I'm kind of confused. The lands measure to .309 and the grooves right at .311. I expected it to be a lot looser. I talked to a buddy at the range today who is an experienced cast bullet reloader, and he suggested that my Unique load may not be producing enough velocity to stabilize them (they're right at 1200FPS over the chronograph)...he suggested I bump it up a bit so I loaded up a few rounds with 4227 and 4198 (should give me about 1500 and 1800 respectively), but haven't been able to get out and shoot them yet. What are your thoughts on that?

I did load some jacketed 150s up to around factory pressures and they shot fine.