I am confused by jljones post. I don't follow this topic closely but does anyone actually who fights for a living actually still use a 16" gun? I get that many might choose an M4 when it really doesn't matter the length. But a 16" gun?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I am confused by jljones post. I don't follow this topic closely but does anyone actually who fights for a living actually still use a 16" gun? I get that many might choose an M4 when it really doesn't matter the length. But a 16" gun?

11.5 inch with 5.5 inch suppressor is pretty much the standard for the worlds hostage rescue guys that can pick whatever they want. So, if unsuppressed 11.5 inch SBRs are a must for “cLosE QuArTErS” due to length, what is the difference in running 17 inches of suppressed rifle (like the big kids do) versus 16 inch guns unsuppressed? Answer- there is none.

Running a 11.5 unsuppressed holds no advantage inside a structure over the OP’s 14.5, or even a 16 inch gun.

Edited- let’s try it this way.

What specifically do 11.5 guns do “better” inside a structure than a 14.5? Please be specific, and no general answers like maneuverability or CQB. I’d like to see some numbers to back up the claim.

The shock wave, loud noise and fireball while shooting them makes me smile.

It's purely a matter of my personal preference and opinion, but I'd argue an unsuppressed 11.5 inch gun offers superior handling and doesn't lose anything in terminal effectiveness to an unsuppressed 16 inch gun at room clearing range assuming the user is wearing ear pro. In the age of electronic ear pro, there is no reason to not use ear pro as part of your entry gear. It gives you a package that handles every bit as well as a MP5 but offers the terminal ballistics of a rifle round. I've seen wounds from both and there is no comparison.

Without ear pro the 16 inch gun is going to make you every bit as deaf as the 11.5. They are both incredibly unpleasant inside. Wear ear pro folks, tinnitus sucks. I have to carry a radio when I go camping to try to drown it out so I can sleep. But I digress.

So back to the original question, SBRs are shorter and handier than 16 inch carbines while offering performance vastly superior to handgun rounds at close range. They are also stupid loud. Whether or not that tradeoff is worth it is up to the end user and I won't think poorly of anyone who goes either way on the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:
I'd argue an unsuppressed 11.5 inch gun offers superior handling and doesn't lose anything in terminal effectiveness.

Cool.

In what specific circumstance does it have “superior handling”. Surely you can name at least an instance where the hits on target are faster due to “superior handling” and by how much?

What about on initial entry on the breach point? If there are targets in the deep corners on initial entry, and you have two dudes that have split the door on a center fed room, how much faster are your numbers where dude 1 gets his first “a” box hit on his target and dude 2 gets his hit with the SBR versus a 14.5? That is a true test of handling.

I can tell you what my average numbers are that I see across a wide range of dudes, 11.5 versus 16. I can also tell you what my guys standards are on it. Numbers matter, and they don’t lie.

I have heard it postulated (not by any particular authority) that the "shock and awe" of unsuppressed short rifles can be a boon in the CQB context. I imagine it would be quite disorienting to be on the receiving end of an assault team in a room, when they're wielding MK18 carbines. Whether the disorienting effect on the bad guys is worth the cons for the good guys is something I am certainly not sure of.

Perhaps the short rifle's wieldiness in the context of administrative tasks is more of a perk than their perceived "superior handling" in the context of actually shooting. Things like handling casualties, detaining bad guys, climbing, etc would be nicer with a shorter weapon.

I lean the direction of jljones nowadays. I was formerly deeply entrenched in the "SBR all the things" camp, but have begun to embrace longer barrels.

My current "go-to" 12" rifle with a silencer is the same OAL as my 16" rifle. I have a rather severe aversion to noise (and the idea of ear pro being a necessity, though I do wear it when I shoot with a silencer), so the 16" can wear a SF silencer, but the upper was assembled with the intent to be used without one. Even with a silencer (especially the mini) it's not bad, where handling is concerned. I like the shorter guns, I guess, but in my use of the 16" (even with the RC2) I find that the extra length and weight is not noticed much. Would you notice it if you had to keep the rifle trained, unsupported on something for an extended period? Sure. Would you notice a difference at a range event that had you doing lot's of up/down reps? Only if you had another rifle there to directly compare to. I think, in the adrenaline-fueled, "dynamic" context of a real-life event, it's a wash. Even at the range, or in training scenarios, I think it's not a big factor.

Just like the added length/weight of a silencer, I think these things are mostly noticeable in handling our weapons in a casual manner. When you're actually sending rounds downrange, or toting the weapon in some sort of real duty or civilian emergency scenario, that length and weight is not noticed.

Maybe a legit perk to a shorter one is, in CQB, being able to get closer to a threshold without broadcasting? And maneuvering among similarly-armed teammates? I imagine a squad of guys with Mk18s is going to have a measurably better CQB performance than the same squad equipped with M16s. Maybe not though.

The noise is a big deal, IMO. Unless the "shock and awe" factor is actually favorable, I see no amount of perceived "superior handling" that would outweigh the con of the noise. A 16"+ gun is tolerable (in a real-life self-defense or combat context) to shoot without ear protection. Anything much shorter really isn't. If your (or a loved one) life is on the line, of course it really doesn't matter, but I'd rather equip myself with something that isn't so punishing. The idea of shooting a 16"+ gun without a silencer, and without hearing protection, is palatable, even if only just. Anything shorter, I think a silencer is mandatory, if hearing protection isn't in the equation.

However, Military and LE are why the short barrel configurations exist. Surely they were requested for a reason, and allow things to be done better, in some circumstances. But, professional soldiers/Marines and LE officers aren't immune to the placebo effect. Maybe the short barrel rifle has been tricking us all along. It's commonly stated that the short rifles and PDWs exist for tank crewmen, admin folks who aren't likely going to see frontline action, and SF-types whose primary task is advising and directing the action of their partner force. I've heard it said that these weapons aren't for "real" combat. I guess, if the user wants to be equipped for "real" combat, then he'd better resist the cool factor of a shorty, and train with a longy instead.

I don't think 16" is a magical, true threshold. It's just a convenient one, due to the definitions enforced by the ATF. Along that same line, the AR15 "pistol" really has zero advantages, and is merely a product of the commercial side of the industry. No real professional, ever, would choose a pistol-configured AR15.*

*With the exception of John Clark in Clear and Present Danger. Don't try and tell me he's not real.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
11.5 inch with 5.5 inch suppressor is pretty much the standard for the worlds hostage rescue guys that can pick whatever they want.

Not being even in the same realm as these kinda guys, it's what I like. For the same overall length as a 16" rifle, I have a rifle that's still delivering the kind of ballistics I feel confident in at the kinds of ranges I can see myself using it at, but in a much quieter and less concussive package. If I wasn't wanting to do the SBR route for whatever reason, at this point, I'd think a 14.5" pin and weld with whatever muzzle device would work with a K can would be somewhat comparable. After comparing my rifle with a friend's set up that way, both at the ear and about 30ft away, the report on both is very similar.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
It's commonly stated that the short rifles and PDWs exist for tank crewmen, admin folks who aren't likely going to see frontline action, and SF-types whose primary task is advising and directing the action of their partner force. I've heard it said that these weapons aren't for "real" combat.

Having built an 11.5" URGI "kinda clone," I've done some looking into their use here and there. The Air Force adopted the 10.5" only, and USASOC/Army the 11.5" and 14.5" only. The 10.5" and 11.5" are purportedly only being issued to officers and roles like you touch on in your point, with the 14.5" going to most others, all issued with Surefire RC2's or Minis. A lot of this is info trickling out from armorers and such, as best I can tell. There are a number of pics of kits in Pelicans with one of each length upper kitted out with different stuff along with both length suppressors and one lower, so there are some "special" guys who get to have their pick of either on the fly, it would seem.

Most units like USASOC issue the two upper combinations. Similar to the the SOPMOD program, it is garnished with different optics and a Surefire SOCOM RC2. You’ll see a lot of Green Berets either with an unsuppressed 14.5 or a suppressed 11.5.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Cool.

In what specific circumstance does it have “superior handling”. Surely you can name at least an instance where the hits on target are faster due to “superior handling” and by how much?

On a timer? No. Subjectively? Sure. Going through a tight door with a 11.5 inch barrel feels better to me than going through the same tight space with a 16 inch barrel. Cutting a tight corner with a shorter barrel is more comfortable than doing it with a longer barrel. Is it a big difference? Not really. Does it make a difference to me? Absolutely it does.

Are my split times on paper faster? Probably not. Am I more confident that I'm going to get my gun up and where it needs to be without whacking it into something in an unfamiliar tight space while adrenaline is pumping? Definitely. I can absolutely tell you that my times won't be SLOWER with the shorter gun though, and if they are exactly the same and the gun remains effective and I'm more comfortable with it I fail to see a downside.

Given my preferences (and that's all I'm talking about) I'd like as short a platform as possible as an entry gun that still provides effectiveness on target. With a suppressor, that 11.5 inch rifle is every bit as long as a 16 inch gun unsuppressed, but it gives the benefit of adding the suppressor. If I don't have the suppressor, I'd still rather have the shorter rifle all other things being equal. At the ranges we're talking about with both guns unsuppressed that extra 4.5 inches buys me nothing but slightly less clearance around obstacles. Blast is an issue, but its not like a M4 is hearing safe inside without muffs either.

OP asked for opinions, and I gave mine, and that's all it is. My opinion is that within their specific niche, SBRs provide me with a balance of ease of handling, shootability, and terminal effectiveness that meets my personal needs and desires better than other platforms. Your needs and desires may be different, and that's fine. I've got no real interest in an argument.

Well, I will argue this. Let's face it, A Mk18 Mod 0 is just plain sexier than a M4. Crane saw the Krinkov and went "we can't let the Russians have the sexiest short barrel carbine in existence. Someone bring me a hacksaw..."

I can see advantages for pistol AR and SBR in building clearing and some home defense scenarios. Building clearing is a fairly niche role that you would select an AR pistol or SBR from an arsenal before entering that role. Most of us not in LE don't really know what role we'll be in if we ever must utilize an AR in anger, if you choose a pistol or SBR maybe you should be quite confident you'll use it for close quarters.

quote:

Originally posted by pbslinger:
Most of us not in LE don't really know what role we'll be in if we ever must utilize an AR in anger, if you choose a pistol or SBR maybe you should be quite confident you'll use it for close quarters.

Even then, you're far better off with an AR pistol or SBR from handshake distance out to a hundred or two hundred yards than you are something like a Glock 17. Tell me I'm wrong.

quote:

However, Military and LE are why the short barrel configurations exist. Surely they were requested for a reason, and allow things to be done better, in some circumstances. But, professional soldiers/Marines and LE officers aren't immune to the placebo effect. Maybe the short barrel rifle has been tricking us all along. It's commonly stated that the short rifles and PDWs exist for tank crewmen, admin folks who aren't likely going to see frontline action, and SF-types whose primary task is advising and directing the action of their partner force. I've heard it said that these weapons aren't for "real" combat. I guess, if the user wants to be equipped for "real" combat, then he'd better resist the cool factor of a shorty, and train with a longy instead.

KSGM-This sounds a bit like M1 Carbine and M1 Garand roles in WWII.

I like hedging my bets; the best tool for the job and all. FWIW, the gun I keep primed and ready for shit hitting the fan inside the domicile is a light mounted braced pistol with a 10.5” barrel. I have both a 16” and Marine pattern A2 handy for longer engagements.

We issue HK416A5s with B&T suppressors. Issued with LPVOs and NV capable red dots. A lot easier to maneuver in tight spaces and lessened hearing damage.

I have a braced, 7.5” barreled, Gas Piston, AR Pistol. Now to “rationalize” it, as a pistol it can be loaded and ready in my car whereas it is at no times legal to have a loaded rifle in your car in WA state. Just between us though? It is best at making noise, flash, and smiles.

I put a Kaw Valley Precision Linear Compensator on it and it really does a good job directing the blast and noise forward.





That pic was at noon on a sunny day. You should see it in an indoor range, really gets everyone’s attention

and the point would be? you can also have a 10-12" AR pistol in your car (also not a rifle) with a suppressor (also not a rifle) and have something useful.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
and the point would be? you can also have a 10-12" AR pistol in your car (also not a rifle) with a suppressor (also not a rifle) and have something useful.

I agree w/ you, but he already explained, "It is best at making noise, flash..."

If your priorities are noise, flash, & concussion, then barrels under 10" are better for that. Of course, they are easier to maneuver and conceal too.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:


I daresay, if you have an AR pistol, and you don't have a suppressor on it, you're not only a simpleton, you're an asshole.

I would like to edit this to add:
Or you live in a state run by assholes. (Or communists)

Im stuck behind enemy lines for a few more years. We can’t have any fun toys! No SBR, no Suppressed, no Full Auto.

When I move the hell away from here, there’s a suppressed SBR as soon as possible.

I have an 11 1/2 in AR Pistol .556 - there’s a Griffin Armament blast diverter.
The diverter helps, but that puppy is still OBNOXIOUSLY LOUD!
It’s nice to get in & out of cars, nice for the house, and yeah, I can hit out to 300yds, which is probably the furthest that Im probably going to need in this urban area.

Short, light, and kept simple. If it hits the fan, this is probably my “go-to” AR.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s a 16in or two in the stockpile, there’s also a 20in, if I so choose.

I have both a 14.5 upper and a 10.3 upper. beyond 200, I'll use the 14.5, below I use the 10.3.

Or if I want to do some teeth rattling at the indoor range, definitely the 10.3.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
and the point would be? you can also have a 10-12" AR pistol in your car (also not a rifle) with a suppressor (also not a rifle) and have something useful.

I wanted smallest package available

I don’t want to jump through the hoops for a suppressor or SBR

I am pretty sure it would be plenty “useful” if pressed into defensive service. Much better than a handgun and just as effective as one with another 3-5” of barrel at any realistic engagement scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

If your priorities are noise, flash, & concussion, then barrels under 10" are better for that. Of course, they are easier to maneuver and conceal too.

Never said those were my priorities, just that they are what it is “Best at” as the OP asked.


And yes, concealment was a concern meant as well (small space in vehicle, backpack carry, etc.) not like I have it slung under my trench coat.