This bent barrel rifle was one of Nazi Germany's most weird weapons"

Travis Pike | May 24, 2023

Germany has a long tradition of innovative arms designs. This reputation has allowed us to often overlook their more creative but less great creations. The Krummlauf variant of the StG 44 is one of them.

The Krummlauf is a bent barrel attachment for the STG 44, which is often credited as the first assault rifle. Several variants were produced, and they attempted to add several different degrees of a curve to the barrel; they included 30-, 45-, 60-, and even 90-degree barrels. The 30-degree variant was the only model ever produced in high numbers...

Complete article with several photos and I hate to read "Nazi" where "Wehrmacht" or "German military" would work.

https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/t...12&mc_eid=ad7a3ddc88

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:
... I hate to read "Nazi" where "Wehrmacht" or "German military" would work.

Preach it, Brother.

I picked up and read one book some time ago partially because a review in The Wall Street Journal pointed out that the author avoided calling everything relating to the German military by the lazy term “Nazi.” Doing that is equivalent to calling all US military personnel during WWII “Democrats” because Democrat party members were in the White House during the war.

Certainly many of the WWII German soldiers were members of the nazi party, but even many of the die hard nazis claimed they were never nazis after the war ended.

A friend of mine's German wife was shocked when she recently found out her father had been a member of the nazi party. She knew her father had been a soldier, but he'd always said that he wasn't a nazi. Another friend of mine told me about his grandfather who was in the SS, but was "drafted" into it...... I bet.

Since it’s about the German military, hopefully it’s not too far off topic, but yes, after the war it was extremely common for Germans to disavow many things from knowledge of the treatment of the Jews to being members of the Nazi party. A good friend who became well acquainted with many German military veterans in the 1980s likes to relate that whenever their service came up, it was, “I only drove a truck on the eastern front.”
(The “eastern front” part was important to make it clear that they weren’t involved in combat operations against Americans.)

But, however, it was also true that countless men were conscripted into the Wehrmacht in virtually all roles, and many would have been ineligible for Nazi party membership even if they had wanted to be a member. One classic story is The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer (Mouminoux) who was more French than German. (I was surprised to learn that he died at the age of 94 just in January 2022.)

It’s also well known that the Waffen-SS had many units that were made up of non-German foreigners (which was originally forbidden), and according to Wikipedia, the SS did even resort to conscription for manpower.

It’s legitimate to refer to wartime Germany as a “Nazi regime,” which it was, but not to refer to all individuals by the term.

quote:

Originally posted by jaybirdaccountant:
Another friend of mine told me about his grandfather who was in the SS, but was "drafted" into it...... I bet.

Which is entirely possible, as the Waffen-SS did include conscripts, especially the later in the war you got. The initial prewar ideal of the Waffen-SS being an "elite and exclusive army made up of pure ubermensch volunteers" quickly became watered down as the war ground on, with them resorting to compulsory conscription and foreign non-Aryans as a means to bolster their flagging manpower, just like every other branch of the Germany military had to do.

But it's also an easy claim to employ if one were attempting to avoid culpability.


(Kinda similarly, some folks are surprised to learn that the US Marine Corps included draftees during the WW2 through Vietnam eras, as it goes against the myth of the wartime Marine Corps being an elite organization made up exclusively of volunteers who wanted to be with the best... The truth is that not all Marines from the 1940s through 1970s volunteered to be Marines; some were conscripts who were voluntold to be Marines.)

Thinking that the 'bent barrel' is worth posting a picture of, to facilitate discussion.

According to the linked article, cool an idea as it was (shooting around corners, while under cover) it failed for three reasons:

quote:

Firstly .... the barrels lasted for only about 300 rounds.

Secondly, the weapon’s bullets broke at the bend ...

Thirdly, the Krummlauf was very inaccurate.

TBH, I think the third reason is caused by the second reason - broken bullets aren't going to be very precise at range.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by jaybirdaccountant:
Another friend of mine told me about his grandfather who was in the SS, but was "drafted" into it...... I bet.

Which is entirely possible, as the Waffen-SS did include conscripts, especially the later in the war you got. The initial prewar ideal of the Waffen-SS being an "elite and exclusive army made up of pure ubermensch volunteers" quickly became watered down as the war ground on, with them resorting to compulsory conscription and foreign non-Aryans as a means to bolster their flagging manpower, just like every other branch of the Germany military had to do.

But it's also an easy claim to employ if one were attempting to avoid culpability.


(Kinda similarly, some folks are surprised to learn that the US Marine Corps included draftees during the WW2 through Vietnam eras, as it goes against the myth of the wartime Marine Corps being an elite organization made up exclusively of volunteers who wanted to be with the best... The truth is that not all Marines from the 1940s through 1970s volunteered to be Marines; some were conscripts who were voluntold to be Marines.)

Agreed,

Also remember the Waffen-SS is not the same as the Concentration Camp SS (two different pools of recruits/command chain etc).


~500K foreigners in the Waffen-SS, with 1/3 of those being conscripts and the others being volunteers/voluntolds.

Waffen-SS was allowed to recruit from all conquered countries so ended up with almost all the non-German/German recruits from conquered nations. (maybe all).

Germans used propaganda about fighting against communism to lure recruits into the Waffen-SS.

I wouldn't say this absolves Waffen-SS members of war crimes, just saying that some of them were forced to be part of it/conscripted.

Germany also used prison battalions of captured Russian soldiers against the Western armies on D-day and the days thereafter.


Ost-Bataillone were composed of various nationalities, raised mostly amongst prisoners of war (POW) captured in Eastern Europe, who had been formed into battalion-sized units, which were integrated individually into German combat formations, and;

Ostlegionen were larger foreign legion-type units raised amongst members of a specific ethnic minority or minorities, and comprising multiple battalions.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
Waffen-SS was allowed to recruit from all conquered countries so ended up with almost all the non-German/German recruits from conquered nations. (maybe all).

No, not all. (Even the Osttruppen units you specifically mentioned were part of the Army, not the Waffen-SS.) Not even almost all... There were approximately 1 million foreign volunteer soldiers who served in the Wehrmacht as a whole, and only around half of those served in the Waffen-SS.

Besides the Osttruppen units, the German Army included a large number of other units with foreign recruits, like the Croatian Legion, Spanish Blue Legion, Slovak Expeditionary Army Group, Russian Liberation Army, Free Arabian Legion, Walloon Legion, Indian Legion, various Cossack cavalry units, etc.

And that's not even counting the additional 1 million or so foreign Hilfswilliger auxiliaries that worked for the Germany military and police.

History is complicated. The mid-20th century certainly wasn't black and white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the largest all volunteer division on the Waffen SS was the Charlemagne Division (French). and never mind the Legion Francais. There was a color photo on the cover of 'Signal' that showed two LF soldiers under the Eiffel Tower.

quote:

Originally posted by clubleaf206:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the largest all volunteer division on the Waffen SS was the Charlemagne Division (French). and never mind the Legion Francais. There was a color photo on the cover of 'Signal' that showed two LF soldiers under the Eiffel Tower.

While there were quite a few French volunteers in the Waffen-SS Charlemagne Division, it wasn't anywhere near the largest of the foreign volunteer divisions, with only ~11,000 men at its largest. It was also one of the later divisions created, only being formed in September 1944.

There were a number of larger foreign volunteer units in the Waffen-SS, some of which were formed as early as 1940. These include the the 21k strong Handschar Division (made up of Bosnians, Croats, and Albanians), the 19k strong Wiking Division (made up of Scandinavian and Dutch volunteers), and a number of other divisions of Latvians, Estonians, Hungarians, Russians, and Romanians with 12k-18k apiece.

The last dregs of the shattered Charlemagne Division do have the distinction of being one of the final formations fighting in the last gasps of the Battle of Berlin, including taking part in the late fighting in and around the Reich Chancellery and Hitler's bunker until May 2nd, 1945. These remaining few hundred French diehards fought almost to the last man, since they knew that even if they survived, they would likely be executed as traitors back home in France. (Which is exactly what happened to a dozen or so of them that survived the fighting and went into captivity.)