quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
Looking at an ancient Sierra load book, there are 3031 listings for 300WM.
3031 - 190gr bullet - 51.0 start, 53.8 max
3031 - 165(8)gr bullet - 53.9 start, 56.6 mid, 59.3 max

Raw numbers of what was *supposed* to be in there seem to be in the right range.
Maybe the powder was as old as this reloading data... Who knows?

Correct.

As I mentioned before, SEE isn't supposed to be an issue with 3031, and indeed, the similar H4895 is recommended for certain reduced loads by the maker.

As you suggest, 51 grains of 3031 with the supposedly used bullet does not in any way indicate potential for a gun wrecking pressure spike in the .300 w/ the supposedly-used bullet.

It might not be the best powder for certain applications, but in reference to the topic, doesn't indicate any danger in the .300, either, if not overloaded. And it's not a "wrong" powder depending on the goals the handloader wanted to meet.

We still don't know the details of what went on but I hope we find out more.

I haven't gone through all of the previous posts, but has anyone asked how close to the lands the bullets were seated? That can significantly affect pressures. Just curious.

Just jumping back into this thread. Haven't been able to connect with the owner and I'm out on a business trip for a couple of weeks. I'll inspec the ammo and collet data when I return and post the results as soon as I can.

Tony.

I'm more amazed the more I find out about what happened.

I got back from my out of town trip yesterday and the owner stopped by today and dropped off a bunch of handloads. Apparently, he had a blown case on a 125 grain round before this! This is the first I'm hearing about that! Here's the blown case which they got un-stuck. The case head has some really interesting steps to it.









If you look closely, you can make out R-P (Remington) on the case head.


Moving on to the 190 grain rounds, Here's the load data on the cases...


These cases were very inconsistent. Some seemed to be sized too much with mushroomed and dented shoulders. Headspace varied over 0.010". I have never loaded for 300WM, so I don't know what the headspace from base to shoulder datum should be.



Mushroomed shoulder...




As I dissected a round, I zeroed and verified my scale with check weights...



Complete round...


powder charge measured .5 grain above listed load...


Bullet weight...


COL...


Prepping to measure base to ogive...


Base to ogive...


Prepping to measure base to shoulder datum...


Shortest measured round...


Longest measured round...


I'll pull the rest of the bullets later and gather charge weights. Gotta go for now.

Tony.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: benny6,

I dissected some more rounds today and I found a couple of rounds in the batch that were different. They had 69.8 grains of a different powder with much of a smaller granules. The bullet was also 181.2 grains. Does anyone recognize this powder?



The 125 grain loads listed reloader 11, so I decided to pull it and see if the powder matched. I was shocked to find out that it was a completely different stick powder than the 181 grain load and it was mixed with flaked pistol powder! Some of the stick granules had a red stain on them, I imagine for identification purposes. The charge weight was 60 grains.



I wonder if this 125 grain load weakened the action and opened the headspace which led to a detonation of the action when shooting the 190 grain bullets.

I have no idea what the powder was in the 181 grain load.

Here is the data on the remainder of the 9 rounds that I dissected:
Headspace:
1: 2.254"
2: 2.262"
3: 2.255"
4: 2.250" (Smallest HS)
5: 2.254"
6: 2.258"
7: 2.257"
8: 2.255"
9: 2.264" (Largest HS)

Powder charge:
1: 51.5
2: 51.8
3: 51.3 (lightest load with 3031)
4: 51.5
5: 51.9
6: 69.8 (mystery powder and 181gr bullet)
7: 69.4 (mystery powder and 181gr bullet)
8: 52.7 (Highest load with 3031)
9: 51.6

Bullet weight:
1,2,3,4,5,8,9 all 190.4gr to 190.6gr
Round 6: 181.2gr
Round 7: 182.0gr

COL:
1: 3.350"
2: 3.355"
3: 3.349"
4: 3.349"
5: 3.347"
6: 3.307" (181gr bullet)
7: 3.310" (182gr bullet)
8: 3.351"
9: 3.352"

COL from base to Ogive:
1: 2.746"
2: Pulled before measuring
3: 2.747"
4: 2.744"
5: 2.746"
6: 2.704"
7: 2.707"
8: 2.745"
9: 2.749"

I've got 3 more batches to dissect with 125 grain and 165 grain bullets.

Tony.

sounds like a sloppy or inexperienced reloader,

dents in the shoulder come from a dirty die or case with too much lube, (or both)
mushroom usually is from the die set too 'short' or the shoulder area of the die is full of crud, (pushing down on the shoulder vs resizing it, )



you are finding some scary stuff there,,

Good lord.

This is a healthy reminder to stay vigilant when handloading, and to follow proper loading data.

That mixed powder load is pretty horrifying... how could anyone think that was a good idea, especially in something like a .300 WM?

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Good lord.

This is a healthy reminder to stay vigilant when handloading, and to follow proper loading data.

That mixed powder load is pretty horrifying... how could anyone think that was a good idea, especially in something like a .300 WM?

willing to bet the reloader did not clean out the powder measure when changing calibers, or mixed some powder up when changing,,


had a friend do that with some pistol powder (he thinks 2400) and 748,

found out after he sent some rounds to Winchester to look over (he had thought he had a bad lot of 748) that he had apparently had mixed up some pistol powder in his can of 748 when changing calibers on his Dillon

how did he find out?? he blew up 2 AR's
he was shooting one, his son the other,
neither were hurt, guns were repaired

What a shit sandwich. I will shoot my shooting partner's reloads, and he mine, but no one else's.

Glad this guy is O.K., but sad about his rifle.

RMD

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Good lord.

This is a healthy reminder to stay vigilant when handloading, and to follow proper loading data.

That mixed powder load is pretty horrifying... how could anyone think that was a good idea, especially in something like a .300 WM?

willing to bet the reloader did not clean out the powder measure when changing calibers, or mixed some powder up when changing,,


had a friend do that with some pistol powder (he thinks 2400) and 748,

found out after he sent some rounds to Winchester to look over (he had thought he had a bad lot of 748) that he had apparently had mixed up some pistol powder in his can of 748 when changing calibers on his Dillon

how did he find out?? he blew up 2 AR's
he was shooting one, his son the other,
neither were hurt, guns were repaired

Good assessment.

I reckon it was something like that.

The whole kit and kaboodle indicates a clueless handloader. Anybody can make a mistake with powders but that combined with the bad case prep, etc, indicates a guy that should take up golf.

Allowing somebody else to drive him around the course, naturally....

Nice "NCIS" job there, OP.

Thanks for posting.

Is it just the angle of reflected light or do some of those look like there was a pliers used to apply a crimp?

quote:

Originally posted by mr kablammo:
Is it just the angle of reflected light or do some of those look like there was a pliers used to apply a crimp?

It would appear that he used a factory crimp die

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Good lord.

This is a healthy reminder to stay vigilant when handloading, and to follow proper loading data.

That mixed powder load is pretty horrifying... how could anyone think that was a good idea, especially in something like a .300 WM?

willing to bet the reloader did not clean out the powder measure when changing calibers, or mixed some powder up when changing,,


had a friend do that with some pistol powder (he thinks 2400) and 748,

found out after he sent some rounds to Winchester to look over (he had thought he had a bad lot of 748) that he had apparently had mixed up some pistol powder in his can of 748 when changing calibers on his Dillon

how did he find out?? he blew up 2 AR's
he was shooting one, his son the other,
neither were hurt, guns were repaired

Good assessment.

I reckon it was something like that.

The whole kit and kaboodle indicates a clueless handloader. Anybody can make a mistake with powders but that combined with the bad case prep, etc, indicates a guy that should take up golf.

Allowing somebody else to drive him around the course, naturally....

Nice "NCIS" job there, OP.

Thanks for posting.

Ahhh, so.

I hadn't considered that. I guess it just seems like SOP to make sure powder measures are completely clean and old powder put away before I switch to something else. Glad your friend and his son were okay, and I hope he is more careful now!

I'll shoot ammo my dad has loaded, and he mine, but other than that we only shoot factory stuff... we've disassembled, rather than shot, a LOT of "free" handloads that came with old guns we've purchased throughout the years.

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Good lord.

This is a healthy reminder to stay vigilant when handloading, and to follow proper loading data.

That mixed powder load is pretty horrifying... how could anyone think that was a good idea, especially in something like a .300 WM?

willing to bet the reloader did not clean out the powder measure when changing calibers, or mixed some powder up when changing,,


had a friend do that with some pistol powder (he thinks 2400) and 748,

found out after he sent some rounds to Winchester to look over (he had thought he had a bad lot of 748) that he had apparently had mixed up some pistol powder in his can of 748 when changing calibers on his Dillon

how did he find out?? he blew up 2 AR's
he was shooting one, his son the other,
neither were hurt, guns were repaired

Good assessment.

I reckon it was something like that.

The whole kit and kaboodle indicates a clueless handloader. Anybody can make a mistake with powders but that combined with the bad case prep, etc, indicates a guy that should take up golf.

Allowing somebody else to drive him around the course, naturally....

Nice "NCIS" job there, OP.

Thanks for posting.

Ahhh, so.

I hadn't considered that. I guess it just seems like SOP to make sure powder measures are completely clean and old powder put away before I switch to something else. Glad your friend and his son were okay, and I hope he is more careful now!

I'll shoot ammo my dad has loaded, and he mine, but other than that we only shoot factory stuff... we've disassembled, rather than shot, a LOT of "free" handloads that came with old guns we've purchased throughout the years.

Some loads involve black powder as a booster charge for heavy loads of VERY slow burning powders. In fact, certain artillery shells have been loaded using similar methods of two types of powders. I'm not going to say it was common, but certain blackpowder cartridges have been assembled using BP as a booster for very slow burning powders and the loads can be found in print many years ago. I haven't seen much of that discussed in recent years but maybe a trip over to the Castboolit site might uncover some.

I really don't think any of that was going on here, and certainly NOT with 3031 which is not a slow burning powder. The >100% density loads commonly used with BP booster charges were done so in order to prevent powder migrations and the scattering of the BP throughout the case. It has been done and done safely, but it is in my opinion NOT a practical or valuable or useful method. I haven't seen loads like that in print for many years.

I think the bugbear here is just sloppy loading. Certainly when you find one mistake you might be able to be more forgiving, but when you see this guy's overall product damned by more than one mistake, it indicates good reason to steer clear of the guys loads!!

I'll get more pics tomorrow, but I dissected one of the 165 grain loads and the powder appears to be 70 grains of what looks exactly like ACCURATE #5!!!

It's either that or some type of ball powder. It's not 748, that's for sure. Perhaps BLC-2 or maybe H335.

This is actually quite entertaining.

Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
This is actually quite entertaining.

Tony.

I bet it is!!!

You are enjoying the CSI work we can tell. Good on you and keep us posted!!