quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
To be safe(r). Ever been to a completion? drop mag, show clear, inspect chamber, drop slide/ bolt, pull trigger. move on.
The US Army protocol actually leaves the gun as jljones suggests, but he doesn't actually follow the mechanism they use to get there. But in any case here it is (US Army std.)
1.Point the muzzle in a designated SAFE DIRECTION. Attempt to place selector lever on SAFE. If weapon is not cocked, lever cannot be placed on SAFE.
2.Remove the magazine by depressing the magazine catch button and pulling the magazine down.
3.To lock bolt open, pull charging handle rearward. Press bottom of bolt catch and allow bolt to move forward until it engages bolt catch. Return charging handle to full forward position. If you have not done so before, place the selector lever on SAFE.
4.Visually (not physically) inspect the receiver and chamber to ensure these areas contain no ammo.
5.With the selector lever pointing toward SAFE, allow the bolt to go forward by pressing the upper portion of the bolt catch.
6.Place the selector lever on SEMI and squeeze the trigger.
7.Pull the charging handle fully rearward and release it, allowing the bolt to return to the full forward position.
8.Place the selector lever on SAFE.
9.Close the ejection port cover.

I personally don't see any reason for pursuing steps 7-9 for a gun headed for long term storage, but that's just my opinion. I'm completely sure in short term storage it doesn't make a hoot of difference.

what comps are you shooting?


Service Rifle,

drop mag
pull bolt back,
visually inspect
insert ECI into chamber
put gun on safe
put gun on stool or matt,
keep muzzle down range at all times,
don't touch the gun until you are allowed (prep period) unless leaving the line and then it best be muzzle up, safety on, ECI in the rifle,

close the bolt when you put it in your case

USPSA procedures for handguns, all handguns,

Unload and show the range officer an empty chamber. Done properly the RO MUST visually inspect the chamber to ensure that it is indeed empty.

At which point the RO will instruct the shooter to slide forward, hammer down, holster.

Multiple layers of safety.


Procedure is the same in 3-gun for rifle and shotgun, but chamber flags are pretty much standard for long guns after the physical inspection by the RO.

thanks for that

Is the factory safety on the rifle on or off? It is a factory installed mechanical safety. By leaving it off, you are defeating it? Yes you are. Can you see if there is a round in the chamber three or four weeks after you store it with the bolt down?

You are asking for trouble that is not proven or shown to be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Can you see if there is a round in the chamber three or four weeks after you store it with the bolt down?

If the safety selector will not actuate, the hammer is down, and the rifle is incapable of being fired.

Can YOU see if there is a round in the chamber three or four weeks after you set your rifle down? Because if your extractor failed to remove the cartridge from the chamber, YOU have a hot rifle the moment you flip your safety off. I have to insert a loaded mag and charge the rifle.

I've seen the bottom blown out of a dump barrel by an incomplete extraction that dropped the live round right back into the chamber while an unseasoned competitor was clearing his rifle after a stage.

Using your method, if someone inadvertently fails to clear the chamber when they drop the magazine, anyone who picks up the rifle and flips off the safety is then holding a hot weapon.

Using my method, there is no possibility for the hammer to even fall.

You are being stubborn about the nomenclature of the 'safety', and ignoring the mechanics of how the rifle works and how many steps it would take to result in a hot rifle. Or rather, how many mistakes would it take to end up with a hot rifle.


Either method is equally safe. I can confirm that my rifle is unable to fire by attempting to actuate the safety. You can confirm that your rifle is unable to fire by visually checking the chamber.


This presupposes that all other safety rules are observed. Finger off trigger, don't point gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy... etc etc.



When I am at a match and utilizing chamber flags, chamber is flagged, safety is engaged. Handgun is left in the holster, hammer down, safety off, because you can't engage the safety of a 2011 with the hammer down. Exactly like an AR-15. I store my 2011 in my safe with the hammer down, safety off, exactly like my AR-15s.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
It is a factory installed mechanical safety.

None of my rifle safeties are factory installed.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
At one time “active” shooter meant nothing more than someone who was actively involved in the shooting sports. I don’t see any reason why we can’t continue to avoid letting our adversaries associate “shooter” with horrific crimes. When I discuss such things, I try to use “active killer” or “active violence” as a way of emphasizing that shooting isn’t a crime or the problem we face.

I also have the objection that "active shooter" to mean someone shooting the place up is nothing more than officious cop-speak. That person is a shooter or murderer. We have words for that already. We don't need to invent new ones, and especially awkward compound nouns made out of other parts of speech.

Now back to the pissing match over hammer cocked/on safe or hammer down.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I also have the objection that "active shooter" to mean someone shooting the place up is nothing more than officious cop-speak. That person is a shooter or murderer. We have words for that already. We don't need to invent new ones, and especially awkward compound nouns made out of other parts of speech.

I hate to further derail the thread, but the "active shooter" term was coined for a specific purpose, to quickly identify a specific type of event. This is helpful for responding officers to rapidly differentiate between someone who's actively shooting/killing victims versus someone that had may have been shooting before but has since stopped and barricaded themselves, or someone that sought out one specific victim to kill and then fled, as some situations turn into. All those types of situations involve "shooters" or "murderers". But only one involves someone who is currently actively shooting/killing additional victims.

The idea is that with an "active shooter", the officer or officers have to immediately make entry and run towards the sound of the shooting in order to take out the threat because the killing is ongoing. Whereas with a killer that has gone quiet for whatever reason, the officers have more time to approach the situation cautiously, clear the building or area more methodically, potentially wait for backup, form a perimeter, attempt to evacuate the area, establish communication, spool up SWAT, etc.

Prior to Columbine et al, the latter slower approach was used for all of these type of situations, because most of these situations back then were the old-style hostage/barricade or targeted victim scenarios. As we all know, this resulted in additional carnage when the old-style "wait for backup" tactic of the 70s/80s/90s was used with the new style of attacks where the person inside was actively killing as many folks as possible as quickly as possible in an attempt to rack up the highest body count possible.

Hence the need to coin a new term to quickly differentiate between "active" and "non-active" situations, to help guide the response.

Granted, it's not an ideal term. A number of high-profile LE agencies and LE trainers prefer terms like "active killer", especially in light of the attempts by the media to demonize all shooting/guns. Even terms like that may still sound awkward to some of you guys, but it has its purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
It is a factory installed mechanical safety.

None of my rifle safeties are factory installed.

Well played!!

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Can you see if there is a round in the chamber three or four weeks after you store it with the bolt down?

If the safety selector will not actuate, the hammer is down, and the rifle is incapable of being fired.

Can YOU see if there is a round in the chamber three or four weeks after you set your rifle down? Because if your extractor failed to remove the cartridge from the chamber, YOU have a hot rifle the moment you flip your safety off. I have to insert a loaded mag and charge the rifle.

Sorry you find me to be stubborn.

However, the first fundamental rule of firearms safety is we treat all guns as if they were loaded. And you don’t run around with the selector off of safe when it is loaded. The minute we create two sets of rules, especially one set of rules based on a false “storage” belief, we have made the conscious effort to invite a fatal mistake.

You guys do what you wish, but safety just doesn’t take a back seat to me and it never will. This false belief that “storing” the gun with the hammer down doesn’t give us a license to violate basic safety rules. You may run around with the rifle loaded and the safety off, but I won’t condone it. Nor will I say that transporting, storing it any other nonsense with the selector on fire as being ok. Either we abide by basic safety rules or we don’t. We all have to choose.

I understand perfectly why police and dispatchers use the term “active shooter” to describe certain situations. If a dispatcher broadcast that there was an active killer on the loose on Main Street, the first question everyone who heard it would be, “Is he shooting? Does he have a gun?” Law enforcement could have perhaps come up with a different term to mean the same thing, but we can all agree that it’s what’s going to remain in the police lexicon, just as “gender” has replaced “sex” as the more common way of referring to what variety of genitals someone was born with.

What I was referring to was the “You keep using that word” response that seemed to indicate that “active shooter” meant only a murderer in the process of killing people with a gun rather than a more benign meaning based on the two words active and shooter. If someone asks me if I’m a skier, I can say that I am because I have skis and know how to use them, but I would say I’m not an active skier. Likewise I have an amateur radio license issued by the FCC, but when someone looks at my car license plate and mentions the fact, again I’ll say I’m not an active ham because I am seldom “on the air.” In the same vein, if someone knows I own a lot of guns and then asks, “Are you an active shooter?” meaning “Do you shoot frequently?” it would be obvious to anyone (well …, almost anyone, I suppose) that he’s not asking me if I am in the process of murdering a bunch of school kids.

My point isn’t that “active shooter” doesn’t mean a certain thing. My point is that the term doesn’t have to mean only that, and that we shooters—active or inactive—shouldn’t just give up our words to the opposition. Another example is the word “sniper.” The BS news media and others frequently use the term to mean anyone with a rifle (usually) who is shooting at people from a distance. Law enforcement snipers, however, often make an effort to push back against the implication that snipers are just murderers, and cowardly ones at that, and in fact that snipers are not even just shooters (something that not even all shooters understand). I can’t keep anyone from referring to the Texas Tower killer as a sniper, but I don’t have to refer to him that way myself, and I can help ensure that “sniper” doesn’t turn into yet another stick the antigun crowd can use to beat us with.

And as for “active killer” or “active violence,” I have very specific reasons for using those terms in appropriate situations. A school administrator, office worker, or anyone else for that matter, shouldn’t labor under the misapprehension that only men with guns are capable of committing mass murder. They should therefore be alert to other threats and be prepared for them. Blocking access roads to large gatherings with heavy vehicles won’t deter a shooter, but it might prevent a vehicle ramming attack. The ignorant or naïve individual who doesn’t understand why “active killer” might be a more appropriate word to describe the threat will probably not think to do that.

Setting aside the debate over whether the term "Active Shooter" should only be understood and used in its current law enforcement context, and addressing only the hammer-down issue:

I don't store my rifles loaded. If I did, I would absolutely use the safety.

I store my ARs hammer-down because the final step of reassembly, for me, is dry-firing as part of the function check. Since I store my ARs unloaded, there is no reason to charge the rifle on an empty chamber.

On an AR-15, this means the safety cannot be rotated into the "Safe" position. But this isn't a big deal to me since I know the rifle is unloaded and the trigger is also un-reset, as it were.

Would I adopt a different policy in an institutional setting, where weapon control and handling was a bit less precise, and where private Numbnuts P. Sadsack might actually leave a loaded rifle in the rack before heading off to chow? I probably would.

[As far as the leaving the bolt locked back: the AR bolt catch is not the most trustworthy aspect of the AR in my experience. I've seen multiple instances of the bolt going forward from rifles being dropped or bumped. Sometimes they don't go fully into battery, sometimes the catch wasn't fully activated.

Again, because I do not leave my rifles loaded or condition 3 with magazine inserted, there is no reason to lock the bolt back, especially because I do not like surprise chargings-into-battery].

Nobody can really TRULY know their rifle is safe unless they separate the upper from the lower and then store them in two different safes! (Yes, that WAS sarcasm!)

Regarding the “active shooter” term.... DAMN, why did I even mention it?!? Just drop it please and move on already!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I also have the objection that "active shooter" to mean someone shooting the place up is nothing more than officious cop-speak. That person is a shooter or murderer. We have words for that already. We don't need to invent new ones, and especially awkward compound nouns made out of other parts of speech.

I hate to further derail the thread, but the "active shooter" term was coined for a specific purpose, to quickly identify a specific type of event. This is helpful for responding officers to rapidly differentiate between someone who's actively shooting/killing victims versus someone that had may have been shooting before but has since stopped and barricaded themselves, or someone that sought out one specific victim to kill and then fled, as some situations turn into. All those types of situations involve "shooters" or "murderers". But only one involves someone who is currently actively shooting/killing additional victims.

The idea is that with an "active shooter", the officer or officers have to immediately make entry and run towards the sound of the shooting in order to take out the threat because the killing is ongoing. Whereas with a killer that has gone quiet for whatever reason, the officers have more time to approach the situation cautiously, clear the building or area more methodically, potentially wait for backup, form a perimeter, attempt to evacuate the area, establish communication, spool up SWAT, etc.

Prior to Columbine et al, the latter slower approach was used for all of these type of situations, because most of these situations back then were the old-style hostage/barricade or targeted victim scenarios. As we all know, this resulted in additional carnage when the old-style "wait for backup" tactic of the 70s/80s/90s was used with the new style of attacks where the person inside was actively killing as many folks as possible as quickly as possible in an attempt to rack up the highest body count possible.

Hence the need to coin a new term to quickly differentiate between "active" and "non-active" situations, to help guide the response.

Granted, it's not an ideal term. A number of high-profile LE agencies and LE trainers prefer terms like "active killer", especially in light of the attempts by the media to demonize all shooting/guns. Even terms like that may still sound awkward to some of you guys, but it has its purpose.

Its use in that context is useful. But now it has come to be used outside that context, and by the media, and every other knucklehead.

I store my AR's with no mag, hammer cocked, safety engaged. As mentioned in this thread a few times, having the safety on trumps hammer condition.
They do have you hammer down in competition but we are talking apples to orangutans with their reasons vs this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:


However, the first fundamental rule of firearms safety is we treat all guns as if they were loaded. And you don’t run around with the selector off of safe when it is loaded. The minute we create two sets of rules, especially one set of rules based on a false “storage” belief, we have made the conscious effort to invite a fatal mistake.

You guys do what you wish, but safety just doesn’t take a back seat to me and it never will. This false belief that “storing” the gun with the hammer down doesn’t give us a license to violate basic safety rules. You may run around with the rifle loaded and the safety off, but I won’t condone it. Nor will I say that transporting, storing it any other nonsense with the selector on fire as being ok. Either we abide by basic safety rules or we don’t. We all have to choose.

Please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of doing anything with a hot rifle and disengaged safety unless I am engaged in the act of shooting something. I NEVER said or suggested any such thing.

jljones I don't often disagree with you but you are completely off the reservation on this one. There is nothing in this discussion about storage that matches your latest comments. And I am truly scared by what you say. I always treat every gun as loaded, the actual position of the safety is irrelevant. If you think you can have the safety on and violate the basic fundamental rules about the muzzle or trigger, I'm lost, the two are not related. So if I take it out of storage I check its status visually. I do that every time, and for every gun. I do that for every gun I have handed me. I do that for every gun I hand someone. I do that for every gun I store. I do that for every gun I'm asked to clear. The position of the safety is irrelevant. period. Nobody that I can see has suggested that a storage rule about the peculiar nature of an ar safety is to then empower them to run around with a loaded gun and the safety off. As I know the basic safety rules the one on safeties says don't rely on it. So it is not related to the fundamental rules of firearms safety. if you rely on it for anything fundamental you are wrong.

PS. I'm adding this as a PS but there are lots of guns with the same issue as an AR, you can't put them on safe if they are decocked/hammer down. Do you store everything cocked and safety on? just asking. I'd never do that to lots of others guns that I own including most SAO guns.

What this boils down to the "look at me I'm doing something by storing this with the hammer down despite it does nothing" crowd have to make their mind up on is simple.

Either we treat all firearms as if they are loaded, or we don't. If the answer is no, cool, you just have to own it instead of trying to prop up a lack of safety with a bunch of hypotheticals, junk reasons, and mock emotion.

I refuse to have two sets of rules, one for when I think the gun is loaded (selector on) and one for when I think the gun is unloaded (selector off). It is truly foolish to do that. If you are failing to engage the manual safety, you are- 1) Saying it is OK to run around with the gun loaded and the selector off safe or 2) You're not treating the gun as if it was loaded as we run the selector on safe when the gun is loaded. You just can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure if people don't get how bad an idea this is because they don't want to look bad because now they are trying to defend their position, or if they are just that unsafe. When I start reading words like "off the reservation" and "truly scared" leads me to believe that it is probably pride. And I am really hoping that is what it is.

I can't put it any plainer than that.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:


Either we treat all firearms as if they are loaded, or we don't.


I refuse to have two sets of rules, one for when I think the gun is loaded (selector on) and one for when I think the gun is unloaded (selector off).

You aren't paying attention.


Nowhere in any of my statements did I say that I treat a firearm differently because of how it is stored.



It must be quite the ordeal for you to wrap your mind around Glocks, since they don't have a safety lever for you to harp about.

If it doesn't apply to you, then why are you upset and responding? If you'll search my post, nowhere in it do I quote you, use your name, etc. In the posts that I have responded to you, you might want to check them out, because I responded to you by quoting you. I look at posts that don't have anything in general that apply to me, they don't quote me directly, I don't agree with them, and I don't respond to them because they don't apply to me.

So, if you know it doesn't apply to you, why are you upset and responding? I'm glad you understand the four safety rules and thank you for posting them.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
If it doesn't apply to you, then why are you upset and responding? If you'll search my post, nowhere in it do I quote you, use your name, etc. In the posts that I have responded to you, you might want to check them out, because I responded to you by quoting you. I look at posts that don't have anything in general that apply to me, they don't quote me directly, I don't agree with them, and I don't respond to them because they don't apply to me.

So, if you know it doesn't apply to you, why are you upset and responding? I'm glad you understand the four safety rules and thank you for posting them.

Damn... what a can of worms I opened!!!